Considering Suleiman’s restoration of Jerusalem in 1492; does Daniel’s Seventy weeks (Dan.9.24-27); teach a double 70 week prophecy

[Dave Watchman]

On 8/14/2024 at 12:28 PM, Progressive Truth said:

 It’s very simple, yet when understood can easily put to rest any interpretation claiming a “double application”, regardless of its highly intellectual rendering of the original texts. 

Apocalyptic prophecy has “only one fulfillment”,  which is proven by those events within prophecy that have been fulfilled to date. If this were not true, who then has the authority to tell others that this event or that event has yet another fulfillment, or multiple to come. Such reasoning makes the more sure word of apocalyptic prophecy into a nose of wax.  

I would discourage anyone from going down that road. 

I don't mind you believing this. I wouldn't be worried about convincing you otherwise. This might have been something that I would have agreed with as recently as 2013. Even now you are probably more than 90% correct.

Isaiah 61 ►
English Standard Version     

The Year of the LORD’s Favor

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor,,,

"And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 

and the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn;
3to grant to those who mourn in Zion—
to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;
that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.

Ultimately, it is God who has the authority to tell others that this event or that event has yet another fulfillment, or multiple to come. Or to say that: “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 

It's easy to understand that there's only one 1290 day time period of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12, and only one time period of 1335 days when the saints are blessed reaching the end of. And there's only one, one thousand year millennium in Revelation 20, and that there's only one 5 month span of time when the men who have taken the mark of the beast will feel the scorpion's sting taking place in Chapter 9. There's only one span of 1260 days when the Two Witnesses will be given authority, and then lay dead in the streets for 3.5 days in Chapter 11. And only one span of 42 months when the second beast gives his authority to the composite beast in Chapter 13. And so on and so forth.

But Christ the Messiah has two comings, two visitations. And Daniel 9 is the only place that sets out the timing for them in great detail.

I'm not sure we can find an all purpose rule, a standard hermeneutic, which can easily address that enigmatic language in Daniel 9.

If the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks, maybe a second coming would not have been necessary. Jesus would have gathered them then and there, as a hen gathers it's chicks.

Daniel 9 had to be written in a tricky way, where a provision for a second visitation could be embedded within the text. Isaac Newton originally suggested this in the middle ages. He thought that's the reason why the weeks were split up as 7 AND 62, instead of Daniel saying 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince. People have been looking at this a long time, it's not a new theory.

And as I continue to believe that the time to post the proof for this is past, it's still looking to me like the historical facts are speaking for themselves now. The prophetic time periods spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, are forcing the understanding, not the text alone. So if I am correct, if the author from the book mentioned in the post by the OP is sort of correct, it points to a new understanding in the differences between verses 9:26, and 9:27. 

Even so, 
Come Lord Jesus.

Peaceful Sabbath.  

Edited August 17, 2024 by Dave Watchman

[Progressive Truth]

1 hour ago, Dave Watchman said:

Ultimately, it is God who has the authority to tell others that this event or that event has yet another fulfillment, or multiple to come. Or to say that: “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 

 

Dave, I totally agree with your first sentence, but not in the manner you have in mind. God is the author of apocalyptic prophecy, He knows the beginning from the end and has laid out in chronological order events that will come to pass, within each prophecy. As each chronological event is fulfilled time moves forward to the next. Since time only moves forward, to think that one or more of those events can have dual or multiple fulfillments would require time to reverse. Not possible. 

Example: Both Dan. 2 and 7.  A progression of empires are laid out in their chronological order. Where we stand today, historical facts confirm that most of the chronological events in those two prophecies are fulfilled. And not once has there been a dual or multiple fulfillment of any of those events. This can be said of any apocalyptic prophecy including Dan. 9:20-27. 

So even though God has not told us verbally weather an event has one or more fulfillments, by observing the fulfillments of past fulfilled prophecies over the past 2600 years leads us to believe that God built into these prophecies a natural law. That natural express in mans verbiage is,  "that each event within apocalyptic prophecy has only one fulfillment." That natural law points back to the author of apocalyptic prophecy, God Himself, and He reveals to us through observation there cannot be dual or multiple fulfillments of any event within apocalyptic prophecy. 

Happy seventh day Sabbath to You.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Progressive Truth

[Dave Watchman]

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

Dave, I totally agree with your first sentence, but not in the manner you have in mind. God is the author of apocalyptic prophecy, He knows the beginning from the end and has laid out in chronological order events that will come to pass, within each prophecy. As each chronological event is fulfilled time moves forward to the next. Since time only moves forward, to think that one or more of those events can have dual or multiple fulfillments would require time to reverse. Not possible. 

Thanks for your reply.

Time moves forward from every decree, every command, to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. No need to cut time, cut the week in half, or to reverse the times and seasons. There's no violation of the natural laws of physics or time. No damage has been done to the chronology, or to the language, of Daniel. With God, all things are possible.
 

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

Example: Both Dan. 2 and 7.  A progression of empires are laid out in their chronological order. Where we stand today, historical facts confirm that most of the chronological events in those two prophecies are fulfilled. And not once has there been a dual or multiple fulfillment of any of those events. This can be said of any apocalyptic prophecy including Dan. 9:20-27. 

I agree with Daniel 7, not so much with Daniel 2. Daniel 7 has a prophetic time period associated with it. Apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point in time, an ending point in time and a prophetic time period attached. It follows a chronological order so that when that chronology is broken, and the subject matter changes, a new prophecy usually begins. In the Books of Daniel and Revelation there are 17 prophecies and 18 prophetic time periods. 

My historical facts are more complete than your historical facts. Only I know that. So it's not really all that fair of a discussion for you while I hold one hand behind my back. When I said: "it's still looking to me like the historical facts are speaking for themselves now, and forcing another understanding, I was not referring as far back as 457BC, or 27AD, or Friday, April 7, 30AD. Just as far back as 1535, and 62 weeks later in 1969. The things Isaac Newton said to be looking for, appear to be here now. And those are the things some of us, like the book writer in the OP, are reverse engineering our understanding of the text in Daniel 9.

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

So even though God has not told us verbally weather an event has one or more fulfillments, by observing the fulfillments of past fulfilled prophecies over the past 2600 years leads us to believe that God built into these prophecies a natural law. That natural express in mans verbiage is,  "that each event within apocalyptic prophecy has only one fulfillment." That natural law points back to the author of apocalyptic prophecy, God Himself, and He reveals to us through observation there cannot be dual or multiple fulfillments of any event within apocalyptic prophecy. 

Dual prophecy, or a dual fulfillment of prophecy, might not be the correct terminology for Daniel 9. Maybe it's a near/far prophecy, or an overlay prophecy. Or maybe we shouldn't try to label it at all. It's an is what it is prophecy. It's only because Jesus is coming twice, the prophetic time periods, the 7 AND 62, had to be applicable to both visitations. That's what makes Daniel 9 different. 

So if we are correct, verses 9:26, and 9:27, are speaking to two different weeks, at the conclusion of two sets of 70 weeks, all finding their origins in various different decrees to restore Jerusalem. Israel taking control of Jerusalem, or the temple mount, isn't what mattered. It was the command itself that came to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, even before the construction began, that set the clock ticking. 

1 hour ago, Progressive Truth said:

Happy seventh day Sabbath to You.

Thanks.

Peaceful Sabbath.

[Bible nuggets]

On 8/16/2024 at 5:35 PM, Progressive Truth said:

When I spoke of prophecy, I was thinking apocalyptic, those found in Dan. and Rev., since we are discussing  Dan. 9. Can you demonstrate from any of those which are fulfilled your reasoning above? Sorry for the confusion 

Can you explain a little more, just so i understand,  sorry. But if I understand Christain Widener, recently put some videos connecting the seals at endtime berean.com, and on youtube

I think the 70s weeks is the foundation of the prophecy so from there you would have to make all the connections,  much work to properly present that, this is a new revelation to me, I think I woke up in the final week. So my study has been off for a while, but the Lord Is pulling it all together. 

Edited August 18, 2024 by Bible nuggets

[Dave Watchman]

2 hours ago, Bible nuggets said:

I think the 70s weeks is the foundation of the prophecy so from there you would have to make all the connections,  

I think the way you have it worded is perfect. That's technical analysis. The 70 weeks is the driver of the understanding, from there we make all the connections.

Price action makes for market commentary. Trade the charts, do not trade a story. There's too many stories out there. The pilot flies by his instrumentation, when poor visibility precludes the use of ground flight rules. We see through the glass dimly. Our price action, charts and gauges are in those prophetic time periods found in Daniel and Revelation. 

Let me find the 7 and 62 weeks, and like the wise men in the 1st century, I'll know when to be looking for His star in the east. These prophetic time periods can force the understanding of what the symbolic imagery is about. Like the skilled pilot trusting his gauges, we can be very sure of where we are in navigating the prophetic landscape.

So if we were very sure we were in the 70th week already, through the process of elimination, we would know that the Two Witnesses were something other than what the Hal Lindsey model suggested them to be to us. 

Like Art Doyle said: "once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." 

[Dave Watchman]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:52 AM, Dave Watchman said:

And even though I agree that Dr. Christian is in the right ballpark, I don't think he is correct in his detail. I don't think he's correct about 9:27. Or the stone plaques he travelled to Jerusalem to take pictures of. Or about what is going to happen, and when it is going to happen. I sent him a note with other evidence which shows the timing to be sooner, even to the month. I also think he's a very nice guy. And a hard and enthusiastic worker.

And so this is the subject of the thread that I would have loved to talk about. Even though I don't see Dr. Christian as being correct in his data, he sure is a nice guy. And he is working with the correct formula.

Me and a couple other guys were working hard on this around 2015 and 2017 on another forum. Those were the most exciting times I had ever spent on an internet forum. We were all working together like we were on the same team. It was a virtual idea factory. There was a pastor's wife from Florida who was smart. She got the holy grail link from the ISA, the archives of the government of the State of Israel. That link doesn't even work anymore. Spooky. When I click on it it says you need to have an invitation, or is "open to invited readers only." The link had another link in it which connected to an order signed by Levi Eshkol in 1969. The Hebrew text wasn't readable to us at the time, but twice we could read the old typed date 1968 (14.8.68). This to me at the time was like gold. The minutes of the Knesset weren't exactly forthcoming on the net. I had thought I would need to go to a library in Israel and dig though microfiche files. Lol. 

Even the legal forum where the link originated from said something about it being odd that the paperwork made it to the President's Office, as these types of public works orders never made it that high. And here is where the only reason is that I wondered if I could be wrong. Levi Eshkol. After the 6 day war in the spring of 1968, the Sate of Israel expropriated the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem. The Knesset debated the specifics of creating a company for the rebuilding and restoration of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Then the paperwork was sent to the President to be signed. 

And Levi Eshkol was the quintessential Jew. He was a Jew's Jew. He knew all the important history and regulations required to be a Jew. Before he became President, he was on the panel that would decide who could come back to Israel and be a Jew. So he must have known all the dates of when the temple was built, commanded to be rebuilt, and all the dates of when it was destroyed. He certainly would have known of the Ottoman command to rebuild the temple in 1535. He would have certainly known that if he had waited a bit and signed the paperwork in 1969, his decree would be exactly 62 weeks, 434 years, after the Sulieman command in 1535. But he signed it and the company went live in January 1969, Levi died that same month. So I don't think he was a practical joker.   

For anyone reading this and wants a better understanding of what we're talking about, but doesn't have the time to read a book, there's a quick way to thumb through it.

Like I wanted to know quickly, without reading a book, exactly which stone plaques the book author was counting from? These dates are crucial, if we're hoping to be accurate in our count of weeks. He says the dates are carved in stone. So... 

On a windows computer, with Firefox, or a chrome browser, go to the web page with the book. When the page loads as a PDF in the browser, hold CTRL+F and the "FIND" blank will pop up. Then type: STONE in the blank. Then hit the right arrow to fly though the book and see every place where it's written carved in STONE.

https://witnessingtheend.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/witnessing-the-end_2023_free-pdf-1.pdf

Signal Failure

A cool little quote, from the search of stone.

A Miracle in Stone

When the end of the present dispensation shall come has been an anxious question among Christians for nearly two thousand years. Inquiry, and desire to be informed about it, is the natural fruit of faith in what has been foretold and promised in the Scriptures. No one should be censured or lose caste for being concerned to know when the great things of his hopes are to be consummated. The holy Apostles themselves were deeply exercised and often inquired with reference to this point. But God has seen best to throw a thick veil over it, which we should not obtrusively try to lift by an over-curiosity of ours. And by whatever indications led to think our redemption on the eve of accomplishment, we should never lose sight of the Saviour’s answer to those who sought his instructions on this point, namely: “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” It is uncertain and dangerous ground on which to adventure. 

Almost every century since our Lord’s ascension has had its time set in human speculations for his return to judge the quick and the dead, but thus far all such attempts to fix upon the date have utterly failed, to the great discomfiture of those who thought themselves amply assured, thus piling up demonstration on demonstration to the truth of the Master’s words: “Of that day and that hour knoweth no man.” The Rationalistic world is ever parading these signal failures as the standing reproach of all prophetic study, and we put ourselves in the position of very unapt and unwilling scholars if we are not effectively admonished by them to suppress our zeal and to practice becoming reserve touching specific dates of unfulfilled predictions. — Joseph Seiss, A Miracle in Stone (1877)

[Bible nuggets]

36 minutes ago, Dave Watchman said:

And so this is the subject of the thread that I would have loved to talk about. Even though I don't see Dr. Christian as being correct in his data, he sure is a nice guy. And he is working with the correct formula.

Me and a couple other guys were working hard on this around 2015 and 2017 on another forum. Those were the most exciting times I had ever spent on an internet forum. We were all working together like we were on the same team. It was a virtual idea factory. There was a pastor's wife from Florida who was smart. She got the holy grail link from the ISA, the archives of the government of the State of Israel. That link doesn't even work anymore. Spooky. When I click on it it says you need to have an invitation, or is "open to invited readers only." The link had another link in it which connected to an order signed by Levi Eshkol in 1969. The Hebrew text wasn't readable to us at the time, but twice we could read the old typed date 1968 (14.8.68). This to me at the time was like gold. The minutes of the Knesset weren't exactly forthcoming on the net. I had thought I would need to go to a library in Israel and dig though microfiche files. Lol. 

Even the legal forum where the link originated from said something about it being odd that the paperwork made it to the President's Office, as these types of public works orders never made it that high. And here is where the only reason is that I wondered if I could be wrong. Levi Eshkol. After the 6 day war in the spring of 1968, the Sate of Israel expropriated the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem. The Knesset debated the specifics of creating a company for the rebuilding and restoration of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Then the paperwork was sent to the President to be signed. 

And Levi Eshkol was the quintessential Jew. He was a Jew's Jew. He knew all the important history and regulations required to be a Jew. Before he became President, he was on the panel that would decide who could come back to Israel and be a Jew. So he must have known all the dates of when the temple was built, commanded to be rebuilt, and all the dates of when it was destroyed. He certainly would have known of the Ottoman command to rebuild the temple in 1535. He would have certainly known that if he had waited a bit and signed the paperwork in 1969, his decree would be exactly 62 weeks, 434 years, after the Sulieman command in 1535. But he signed it and the company went live in January 1969, Levi died that same month. So I don't think he was a practical joker.   

For anyone reading this and wants a better understanding of what we're talking about, but doesn't have the time to read a book, there's a quick way to thumb through it.

Like I wanted to know quickly, without reading a book, exactly which stone plaques the book author was counting from? These dates are crucial, if we're hoping to be accurate in our count of weeks. He says the dates are carved in stone. So... 

On a windows computer, with Firefox, or a chrome browser, go to the web page with the book. When the page loads as a PDF in the browser, hold CTRL+F and the "FIND" blank will pop up. Then type: STONE in the blank. Then hit the right arrow to fly though the book and see every place where it's written carved in STONE.

https://witnessingtheend.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/witnessing-the-end_2023_free-pdf-1.pdf

Signal Failure

A cool little quote, from the search of stone.

A Miracle in Stone

When the end of the present dispensation shall come has been an anxious question among Christians for nearly two thousand years. Inquiry, and desire to be informed about it, is the natural fruit of faith in what has been foretold and promised in the Scriptures. No one should be censured or lose caste for being concerned to know when the great things of his hopes are to be consummated. The holy Apostles themselves were deeply exercised and often inquired with reference to this point. But God has seen best to throw a thick veil over it, which we should not obtrusively try to lift by an over-curiosity of ours. And by whatever indications led to think our redemption on the eve of accomplishment, we should never lose sight of the Saviour’s answer to those who sought his instructions on this point, namely: “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” It is uncertain and dangerous ground on which to adventure. 

Almost every century since our Lord’s ascension has had its time set in human speculations for his return to judge the quick and the dead, but thus far all such attempts to fix upon the date have utterly failed, to the great discomfiture of those who thought themselves amply assured, thus piling up demonstration on demonstration to the truth of the Master’s words: “Of that day and that hour knoweth no man.” The Rationalistic world is ever parading these signal failures as the standing reproach of all prophetic study, and we put ourselves in the position of very unapt and unwilling scholars if we are not effectively admonished by them to suppress our zeal and to practice becoming reserve touching specific dates of unfulfilled predictions. — Joseph Seiss, A Miracle in Stone (1877)

Well there are things that are happening now that have never happened in history, that are lining up, He tells us to know the season, to be not caught off guard. I will be posting more so, are you Aware that un Daniel the word sacrifice is added in where it says taken away,  check it out, also are you Aware that an asteroid named child came out of virgo on Oct 7? See on stellarium,  type child and put in the date.

Edited August 18, 2024 by Bible nuggets

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 8/7/2024 at 2:58 AM, Bible nuggets said:

Rather the text has a double application to two decrees;

Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people,
and upon thy holy city. Daniel 9:24  (Daniel 9:2,16)

70 sets of 70 year captivities.

4,900 years worth of captivity.

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth
of the command to restore and build Jerusalem  unto the Messiah
shall be seven captivities and 62 weeks.

7 * 70 = 490

The text is directly telling us 490 years and 62 weeks.

Someone took liberty and changed everything to "weeks"
but clearly "weeks" is not the proper understanding. 

And the history of past captivities has been muddied.
If there is evidence of something in 1500
that is yet another one we can see.

We can see many distinct times Jerusalem
has been surrounded by armies resulting in captivity

The Babylonian Captivity, the times of Daniel,
Roman Captivity, the times of Christ.

The crusades from around 1090
the Pope led armies that both surrounded and captured Jerusalem.

May 1948 Jerusalem was literally surrounded by armies.
From 1948 to 1967 half of Jerusalem was literally desolate.
From 1967 and ongoing many in and around Jerusalem live in captivity,
a constant military occupation.

I think the command to rebuild is only referring to the time of Christ,
but the passage as a whole is referring to 70 total captivities.

As we know, hundreds of years have past after Christ,
and Israel and Jerusalem have been in and out of captivity multiple times.

 

 

[Bible nuggets]

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Seventy captivities are determined upon thy people,
and upon thy holy city. Daniel 9:24  (Daniel 9:2,16)

70 sets of 70 year captivities.

4,900 years worth of captivity.

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth
of the command to restore and build Jerusalem  unto the Messiah
shall be seven captivities and 62 weeks.

7 * 70 = 490

The text is directly telling us 490 years and 62 weeks.

Someone took liberty and changed everything to "weeks"
but clearly "weeks" is not the proper understanding. 

And the history of past captivities has been muddied.
If there is evidence of something in 1500
that is yet another one we can see.

We can see many distinct times Jerusalem
has been surrounded by armies resulting in captivity

The Babylonian Captivity, the times of Daniel,
Roman Captivity, the times of Christ.

The crusades from around 1090
the Pope led armies that both surrounded and captured Jerusalem.

May 1948 Jerusalem was literally surrounded by armies.
From 1948 to 1967 half of Jerusalem was literally desolate.
From 1967 and ongoing many in and around Jerusalem live in captivity,
a constant military occupation.

I think the command to rebuild is only referring to the time of Christ,
but the passage as a whole is referring to 70 total captivities.

As we know, hundreds of years have past after Christ,
and Israel and Jerusalem have been in and out of captivity multiple times.

 

 

Can you show your reason for translating "weeks", as captivity,  the word, for 70, and week, are basically the same word, its basically the plural of 7 = 7s, or weeks. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

21 hours ago, Bible nuggets said:

the word, for 70, and week, are basically the same word

So according to that the text is saying;

"Seventy seventies are determined upon thy people...."  yes?

A captivity is 70 years, and that is the context,
Daniel was reading Jeremiah where it talks about 70 years. 
Daniel 9:2

And Daniel is inside of a 70 year captivity. (Daniel 1:21)
Understanding such, and that Jeremiah said that at the end
of 70 years Jerusalem would be destroyed (Jeremiah 25:12,18)
Daniel therefore prays concerning Jerusalem: Daniel 9:16.

The clear context is the seventy year captivity Daniel was in.

Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 such captivities would happen.

Seventy seventies.
Not weeks, captivities, a captivity is seventy years.