A Four Horsemen Perspective

[Revelation Man]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:22 PM, TCC said:

One thing that is not so clear to me in how you laid it out is the 42 per each seal. Adding all those up would surpass a decade. But likely you have certain categories those years fit in? Like simultanously? 

That's because you may have missed my overall point, the Seals are not Judgments, they all point to the coming Trump Judgments which last 42 months. The Anti-Christ is a part of that Judgment, with each Prophesy (Seal) Jesus is telling about a man soon to come, of course if his rule as the Beast last 42 months then all these things will last for a PARALLEL 42 MONTHS. When he conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region will stay conquered for 42 months. His wars start at the 1260 and continue until the 2nd coming.

Look at at like this, we know this tyrant rules for 42 months, every TRAIT Jesus just gave us about this thug will cover 42 months, they all overlap, he will conquer and kill Christians for 42 months, and Jews who did not flee for 42 months. Of course Famine will come via his rule, now that might not cover the full 42 months, but since these "types" always use food/money to try and control people via rationing etc. etc. I see it as basically 42 months in full. 

You are adding them all up, I say he will rule this way in 5 different things, kind of like Biden over 4 years caused Inflation to RISE and caused Interest rates to RISE also. He also caused Illegal Aliens numbers to RISE, and the debt to RISE, in other words those 4 things coming to pass under Biden does not mean he was President for 16 years. 

I think Trump will be elected because he will be President at the "Last Trump" God does this with peoples names throughout the bible. I think Gog and Magog is next. God Bless, gotta run, Sugar is high, making me sleepy. 

Edited September 22, 2024 by Revelation Man

[Spiros]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:34 PM, TCC said:

Interesting take Spiros. Michael Heiser did a video once of Jesus birth I believe in 3 BC using the Virgo constellation to demonstrated (similar to 9-23-17). I understand the tendency today to compare something of Christ with antichrist. I would tend to see, in the first seal, for example, a mirror of Christ rather than an opposite. In the sense of fiery, I believe it will be. So on that note we would likely see a similar potential. Blessings. 

Decoding the horses using Netaniahu's birth(I use the next day October 22 1949 AD). At this date, the Moon is at the feet of the woman.

white horse: Sagittarius, Jupiter(King)
red horse: Scorpio, Satan(evening fallen bright star) Venus
black horse: Libra no planet(dark sky)
green horse: Virgo, Helios(Sun), Selene(Moon), Ceres, Neptune, Mercury(morning star: Apollo)
     Ceres: Demeter: Isis, Spica - Virgin(green wheat), death(birth leads to death)
Hades: Leo, Saturn(Sabbath planet), Mars(Ares near Regulus), Pluto (Pluto's Moon: Hades)

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by Spiros

[Dennis1209]

On 9/9/2024 at 1:55 PM, TCC said:

Greetings. This forum looks like a great place to discuss or consider some unique perspectives. I had not been interested in end times for 20 years. But 2016 seemed to start to perk an interest. And by 2017, I was very interested. I never read the book of Revelation until 2017. I am pretrib rapture, but open to how others view things.

I have looked at and considered many end times views. During the past 8 years, the irony now for me is that Revelation is very familiar to me now. In fact, I am more familiar with it than most other books of the Bible. I guess it is because I really had to sift through quite a bit to even make heads or tails of it. Of course there is still a lot of mystery in it for me. But some things do standout somewhat.

My view of the four horsemen I have not seen in any theological book. So admittedly it might not be too stable. But over the course of the past 8 years it has only become more likely, it would seem. If correct, it would seem to be something forming right now under our feet.

Some features:
* Seal 1 and 2 seem to be related -- by use of "and another (went out)." This is the only time of the four this phrase is used. Whereas it could have been for the 3rd and 4th but is not mentioned.

* Anti-Christ Seal 1 -- The church had seen the 1st seal as a good thing for 1800 years. Other than "it can't be good because it mirror's Christ's horse color at the end of the trib." But no culture or history has ever had a white horse as deception. Neither has scripture afforded this anywhere else.

* Horsemen -- This distinguishing seems to separate them from other seals. It would appear this separation been indicative potentially of the earthiness (or coming out from men) of their different origin.

* Seal 5 -- Notice seal 5 is seen from effect in heaven...not as we had seen in formation of boots hitting the ground. Persecution would certainly in many ways be considered, "of the earth" arising from men. Could seal 5 actually be a 5th horseman unstated?

The reason I lay it out this way is that it would appear the four horsemen to be somewhat "transitional." Like, part of the system that morphs into (or overlays upon) the age of grace prior to their arrival (I believe the 4 horseman are not birth pangs but a part of the tribulation or a direct bridge into it--in my view this is key).

So I wanted to lay out some features in the event anyone might be interested in discussing views of the 4 horsemen. I believe the 1st seal in general is a good judgement that serves as a bridge into the tribulation age. This may sound unusual. I understand. But I really have not seen exegesis for the 1st seal. Rather, it seems we are more or less in an age of opinion as exegesis.

If interested I would be happy to share my full view. But welcome any cordial pushback and/or views and perspectives that might be helpful or interesting to consider in our day. Blessings.

The Book of Revelation cites and alludes to the Old Testament more than any other NT book. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. Understanding the Book of Daniel is crucial to understanding Revelation. Let the Bible explain itself.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

These above guidelines, or rules if you will, do not seem to apply to the four horsemen, do they? I also have questions I cannot adequately settle on the symbolism of those horsemen.

I have studied Daniel and Revelation extensively and still have problems understanding certain things, such as the Sixth Seal are the Seven Trumpet judgments. The Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl (Vial) judgments are all wrapped together. The parenthetical chapters add more information but to where, the previous, or the coming in sequence.

I have many commentaries that go back centuries. They are still valid and valuable today for many theologies, especially what the early church fathers thought. But I find modern prophetic scholarship much more advantageous to understanding.

In our generation, prophecy is being realized and unfolding right before our eyes and better understood.

[Dennis1209]

On 9/11/2024 at 2:54 PM, DavidReese said:

The seals are not in correct order, they just can,t be because of the events. The white horse being possible blessed by Jesus it would have started a long time ago at least when christian nation came to be and will go on til the end of this world. Possibly the first and the last even when the smoke clears.

The fourth seems to come first

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

To kill with hunger as the above, as the third seal shows. Notice below in the midst of the four beast. food gets very expensive

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Makes me think the great sword is hunger. Food will make people kill each other for sure

³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Then

 

³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

In my opinion, the color of the horses is reasonably representative of what they are carrying and bringing. Some interpret the white horse as Christ, and some see him as the antichrist. I am in the latter camp. For millennia, white has always been the color of purity, peace, surrender, parlay, and truce. If it is the antichrist, he initially comes in peaceably with flatteries, a bow, and no arrows.

[TCC]

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's because you may have missed my overall point, the Seals are not Judgments, they all point to the coming Trump Judgments which last 42 months. The Anti-Christ is a part of that Judgment, with each Prophesy (Seal) Jesus is telling about a man soon to come, of course if his rule as the Beast last 42 months then all these things will last for a PARALLEL 42 MONTHS. When he conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region will stay conquered for 42 months. His wars start at the 1260 and continue until the 2nd coming.

Look at at like this, we know this tyrant rules for 42 months, every TRAIT Jesus just gave us about this thug will cover 42 months, they all overlap, he will conquer and kill Christians for 42 months, and Jews who did not flee for 42 months. Of course Famine will come via his rule, now that might not cover the full 42 months, but since these "types" always use food/money to try and control people via rationing etc. etc. I see it as basically 42 months in full. 

 

Ok so this is an interesting take. I find it fascinating in any event. I feel like with you what I normally feel like it must be for others when I share my seal views...lol. Are you saying that the seals themselves do not do anything as they are removed from the scroll? Like they are not famine on earth, nor war, nor pestilence etc? But are mere expressions of AC when he rules? If so, I consider that rather respectable for your enginuity and perspective. I've never heard this before. And is intriguing. 

You likely had posted something to this effect but as this idea is generally foreign, please forgive if it has, but...would you see the tribulation starting with the trumpets? Skipping past seals? So trumpets first half, bowls second half? You do see a 7 year tribulaiton or 3.5? 

Out of curiosity, how do you view Revelation 12? Thanks. Blessings. 

[TCC]

32 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

The Book of Revelation cites and alludes to the Old Testament more than any other NT book. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. Understanding the Book of Daniel is crucial to understanding Revelation. Let the Bible explain itself.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

These above guidelines, or rules if you will, do not seem to apply to the four horsemen, do they? I also have questions I cannot adequately settle on the symbolism of those horsemen.

I have studied Daniel and Revelation extensively and still have problems understanding certain things, such as the Sixth Seal are the Seven Trumpet judgments. The Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl (Vial) judgments are all wrapped together. The parenthetical chapters add more information but to where, the previous, or the coming in sequence.

I have many commentaries that go back centuries. They are still valid and valuable today for many theologies, especially what the early church fathers thought. But I find modern prophetic scholarship much more advantageous to understanding.

In our generation, prophecy is being realized and unfolding right before our eyes and better understood.

My view of seals is obviously very different that I have seen. My main hermenuetic is the charactor of God revealed in such passages as Ez 11:33 and Hosea 11:9 with a dash of No. 20L12. Ez & Hosea for Providence sake of His concluding His age of grace contrary to escatological blue church the well meaning church might consider having a vantage point on of sorts. And No. 20:12 as displaying His charector in wrapping up His age of grace. Moses thought to teach rebellious Hebrews a lesson by striking the rock and calling them rebels. While all the while water coming out of a rock spoken to refreshes those unworthy as Christ's coming cross offer. Moses was crowding the simplicity of the gospel heart of God. Similarly our church views on esctagology might be overshadowing God's intent with apocolyptic revelation. 

For sure there will be horror unspeakable to come. But just like from what I have seen in general is there is a fascination with the powerful apocolyptic beyond the character of God toward His creation at that time. Again I am not saying fierce judgement won't come. Just saying it seems like a potential filter of His character plays more into how we understand God toward His creation in the closing years of the age of grace...and often run to the beast system or dark stuff. If that makes sense: Blessing.s 

[Revelation Man]

35 minutes ago, TCC said:

Ok so this is an interesting take. I find it fascinating in any event. I feel like with you what I normally feel like it must be for others when I share my seal views...lol. Are you saying that the seals themselves do not do anything as they are removed from the scroll?

Indeed, all 7 Seals have to be taken off before the scroll can be read at all. The Seals are Jesus "metaphorically" in heave, telling the pre 70th week/pre trib. church what is about to befall mankind once the 7th Seal is finally loosed.

 

Let me give you a simple demonstration. Lets says its my 50th birthday bash. I have friends from college sending me gifts, my kids, my wife et al. We plan on having this party on a Saturday 5 days after my birthday. So, the wife locks up all the gifts in the closet and she puts 7 Locks on this Closet door. 

After all my friends show up on Sat. I commence to opening the gifts, which I already know what they are, of course, but first I have to take these 7 locks off the door. I take the first lock off and tell how my best friend in college sent a Harmonica, I take the 2nd lock off and tell about the shirt my daughter bought me, lets skip to lock #6 (smile). I take lock #6 off and tell about how my dad got me an autograph picture of my fav. Baseball player from the Mets or Braves. 

Now, I have told my friends about these gifts, not since lock #7 is still on the closet no one has seen anything as of yet. When I open the 7th Seal, there is no need to say anything further, I just open the door staying silent. That is how Jesus is, IMHO, opening the 7 Seals, his intent is to foretell what is soon to come upon mankind, un to the church which is is heaven listening unto him.

 

49 minutes ago, TCC said:

Like they are not famine on earth, nor war, nor pestilence etc? But are mere expressions of AC when he rules? If so, I consider that rather respectable for your enginuity and perspective. I've never heard this before. And is intriguing. 

They are the very things Jesus who is all knowing, understands will come to pass during this evil tyrants rule. So, Jesus foretells this mans actions over his 42 month reign over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region (not the Whole World) and Jess also foretells of God's coming Wrath via this Asteroid Impact which will start in Rev. 8, which is why the 7th Seal is in Rev. 8.

The main reason I could put this all together is I understood the whole Covenant (Agreement) of Daniel 9 for what it is, not Israel joining up with a False Jesus/A.C. who will be a Gentile (they would never do that) what it is, is this, Israel joins the E.U. its that simple, that is the Agreement that angers God and kicks off the 70th week, Israel, basically, gives God land away. The Rapture happens at that moment AND the 70th week starts.  This made me look at Rev. 7 differently, I knew Israel repented before the DOTL (1260 middle of the week). Thus Rev. 7 being after Rev. 6 meant the Seals are not God's Wrath, but foretells that coming Wrath as seen in Rev. 8, therefore Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea.

57 minutes ago, TCC said:

You likely had posted something to this effect but as this idea is generally foreign, please forgive if it has, but...would you see the tribulation starting with the trumpets? Skipping past seals? So trumpets first half, bowls second half? You do see a 7 year tribulaiton or 3.5? 

As John 16:33 says via Jesus, ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation, that is why those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 are the Pre Trib. Raptured Church. Not Tribulation Saints, no one who misses the Wedding Call will be in Heaven before Jesus' 2nd coming, Rev. 20:4 proves this, the Martyrs are all raised and judged AFTER the 2nd coming. So, yes the 70th week is all TRIBULATION, as is every day on this earth under Babylon (Satan's Dark Rule over the whole world) but the Greatest Ever Troubles only start in the middle of the week or on day 1260. The tribulation will thus last for 1260 days. 

1 hour ago, TCC said:

Out of curiosity, how do you view Revelation 12? Thanks. Blessings. 

God does not use Astrology, its simply a CODE about the PLAYERS, and then we get the Futuristic Prophecy of the Woman (Israel) see Gen. 9:37 that CODE unscrambles it all. The Dragon is Satan, Jesus is the Male Child (that's how it should be translated) and Satan via King Herod tried to kill Baby Jesus, he then rises to Heaven where he is our High Priest. At the very end, starting in verse 6, we see that the Dragon chases the woman (Israel) for 1260 days where God the Father protects them for 1260 days. 

Now read Rev. 15 it also starts out John saw a SIGN  in Heaven . All it means is God was showing John signs in the heavenlies. The Dragon has access to the Heaven  until he is cast down at the 1260, then he tries to wipe out Israel via the A.C. Army, but he will of course fail. 

 

On my Substack I explain every chapter in the book of Revelation.

God Bless.

 

 

[DavidReese]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:52 PM, TCC said:

I am always open to genuine levels of creativity when it comes to our sincere observations to understand our dear Lord and Savior. Amen. However, the sense I get is with the first last and last first have to do with righteousness in for people under the provisional umbrella of Christ. So it would seem the context would be related to people and a rightness of our standing before Christ. More than I would imagine it would relate to timing of things laid out in sequential order.

I don't believe we have seen any of the seals yet. I know some see concur events with judgement cycles. But I would understand Revelation being pretty clear that the trumpets come out of the 7th and last seal, and the bowls come out of the 7th and last trumpet, thus establishing chronology. As for the woes, are they not Trumpets 5, 6, and 7 though brother? Blessings. 

Being simple in my mind the three woes because I believe the two witnesses are one of the woes. This army kills the two witnesses.

¹⁴ Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.¹⁵ And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.¹⁶ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.¹⁷ And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Then the second woe, because of the sixth trumpet

 

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.² And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.³ And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Then the third woe, the sun is smitten and earth rotates faster in turn will cause the grass to die off

¹² And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.¹³ And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

My little mind though?

Just makes me think

[DavidReese]

16 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

In my opinion, the color of the horses is reasonably representative of what they are carrying and bringing. Some interpret the white horse as Christ, and some see him as the antichrist. I am in the latter camp. For millennia, white has always been the color of purity, peace, surrender, parlay, and truce. If it is the antichrist, he initially comes in peaceably with flatteries, a bow, and no arrows.

Hello Dennis do you use any type of interpretation chart when studying Revelations. Things like Stars = Angels, There are so many of them in that book

[DavidReese]

Just for instance I kinda have to study very hard to understand.

A fountain can be like a spring or a Christain

A river can be river or living water from Christ

then again a star = Angel,or star = Israel, or visa verses

³⁷ In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.³⁸ He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

⁴ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.⁵ And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.⁶ For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

 

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

 

Thinking to much again