The place of Baptism

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, I will agree that my word skills are not the best. My point is that when we see a commandment to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" we must take it for waht is says as a commandment.

I don't think people give much merit to the scriptures is they are going to ignore all of these scriptures that have been used. Do I really have the power before God to only believe in what scriptures I want to and ignore the rest?

It is not a matter of ignoring them, but of understanding them in the light of EVERYTHING the Bible says about salvation, and about exegeting a passage correctly. The Bible, taken as a whole does not teach that baptism has any salvific elements. It does not teach that if a person receives Christ but dies without baptism, they are damned. It simply does not say that.

What you are doing is taking individual passages ripped from their natural setting and context, and interpreting them at face value. That is one of the most unreliable modes of biblical interpretation.

A classic example is the way you mishandle James chapter 2 Lets examine the passage you provide:

James 2:18-21 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IN the verses that precede v. 18, James makes the point that you can offer kind words and best wishes to the hungry and the cold, but what good are these words? How does it demonstrate that you care about their needs if you do nothing to feed or clothe them? Love, as James demonstrates is operative. Works of love demonstrate that our words of love are genuine.

James then takes the same analogy and applies it to faith. One can claim to have faith, one can wax eloquent in speaking the things of the Lord, but one cannot demonstrate the genuineness of such professed faith apart from corresponding actions. "You say that you have faith? Show me your faith without corresponding action (you can't). I will show you my faith by my actions."

Abraham, according to James 2 starring in v.2, was justified by works in the sense that his works demonstrated the genuineness of His faith in God. The Bible says in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed in God and it was counted to Him as righteousness. That means that Abraham was justified 25 years before he was circumcised and 430 years before the giving of the law at Sinai. Romans 4 is the death knell to any teaching that claims we are justified by works of any kind.

Abraham was "justified" according to James in the sense that his willingness to offer Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith in God. The faith was there already, and the works that Abraham did were an outworking of his faith. He did not attempt to sacrifice Isaac to be saved, or to gain righteousness. The Bible was clear that He was considered righteous long before.

Now in v. 24 it reads that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James point is that a man is justified by works, not in the attainment of righteousness, but in the declaration of it. He is "justified" in the sight of men when his deeds demonstrate the veracitiy and genuineness of his profession.

As Christians our works are a demonstration of our faith, they do not make us righteous, they do not bring us eternal life.

You are teaching a false gospel of works-based righteousness. Such is anathema to Scriptures...

We are saved not by grace alone, faith alone, or baptism alone. We are saved by all three of them and since they are written the bible for us we need to obey all of them.

You still don't understand... We are saved by Christ alone. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

Again, Ephesians 2:8-9... "By grace are ye saved, and this not of your selves; it is a gift of God. NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." The Bible makes it clear that we are not saved by works... ANY works.

Your false gospel says "do." The Gospel of Jesus Christ says "done."

We have access to that grace by getting baptized and working out our salvation with our faith in God and the bible.

No, grace is a free gift. You completely contradict the very definition of Grace. You are trying to deserve grace through your deeds, when grace by definition is something granted to those who do not deserve it. Grace is a gift given apart from deeds of any kind. Grace cannot be earned.

We do not gain "access" to grace. If you have to gain "access" to it, it is not grace. Grace is the gift that gives us access to father. The outworking of our salvation is the product of being saved. It is our response the salvation we have receieved. It is not the means of gaining salvation.

[felix]

I chose none of the above.

You can be saved before you are baptized. However, I believe that at the time of baptism you believe and thus you are saved at that moment. Cardcaptor and other brothers...this should make the discrepencies clear.

The Israelites exodus from egypt typifies salvation and baptism...

In Egypt the Israelites were commanded by God to have a passover. They were to sacrifice a lamb without spot and blemish and put its blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death may pass over them. The angel of death would be the final plague on Pharoah and his kingdom, Egypt, before the Israelites could be freed from their bondage in Egypt.

Pharoah represents Satan and Egypt represents the world which is Satan's kingdom. The sacrifice of a lamb without spot and blemish is Christ. The blood of the lamb is the blood of Christ. The blood on the doorposts represents the door of our heart. When Jesus is knocking we open the door to him and allow Him in...where our hearts become a home for Him and the Father.

With the angel of death killing the firstborn of every family except the Israelites who had the blood of the lamb on their doorposts, the Pharoah forced the Israelites to leave. The Israelites were thus freed from bondage and able to leave Egypt to worship their God.

This represents what happens to us when we have accepted Christ. We are free from the world and free from the bondage of this world. When we accept Christ we are freed from the grasp of Satan and we exit out of this world into a new creation. We now worship our Lord and God with this new life in Jesus Christ.

The Israelites were led by Moses through the desert. But then Pharoah changed his mind. He said "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!". So Pharoah and his army set out to recapture the Israelites.

After receiving Christ we are seperated from the world (exit Egypt), but soon Satan comes back after us through the world. Satan wants you to worship Him again...to take you away from God and to focus back on the world.

The Israelites were backed up against the Red Sea. They were terrified as the Egyptians were marching after them. They cried out to the Lord. Moses answered, "Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today. The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still". Then the Lord commanded Moses to raise his staff and stretch out his hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites go could through.

As Christians, we face the things of this world...they come after us. But in our trouble we cry out to the Lord. "Whoever calls upone the name of the Lord will be saved" (romans 10:13). We are then...not afraid. We stand firm. And we see the deliverance of the Lord. We only need to be still.

The Red Sea divides. The Israelites go through with a wall of water on their left and on their right. The Egyptians pursued them, all the chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. The Israelites made it out and then the Lord commanded Moses to stretch out his hand over the Red Sea so that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians and their entire army. The waters flowed back killing the entire army. Not one of them survived. The Israelites were now free from the grasp of Pharoah for good.

The Red Sea and the Israelites crossing is a baptism. When they crossed Pharoah's army was completely destroyed. When we are baptised, we are completely seperated from the world. Satan no longer has dominion over us. Every single demon and influence Satan once had on us is destroyed. We are now able to go into the good land.

1 Cor 10:2

They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

If you have accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour be baptized as soon as you can.

Edited November 18, 2005 by felix

[Guest shiloh357]

This is untrue due to the fact that everything I have said is back up by scriptures. You are denying that each of the scriptures are even saying what they are saying.

NO, what you are saying is NOT backed up by the Scriptures. I am not denying what the Scriptures say, I am denying what YOU say the Scripture says.

The bible was not written like an encyclopedia. There is no one whole chapter on baptism, faith, works, grace, etc. That is why a concordence was invented to help us to locat all the scriptures that speak of each of the topics and put them all together for a clear understanding.

You are taking individual verses and interpreting outside of their context. Anyone string verses together and make the Bible says whatever they want it to say. Your skills at interpreting and handling the Bible are extremely poor, and I don't mean that as a put down. You simply are uneducated where biblical interpretation is concerned which explains why you contradict the Bible doctrine of grace.

Our works are the keeps of the commandments of God. When he says not to steal, lie, kill, fornicate, etc and we don't we are committing works. Yes, we can get saved, but we can lose that grace if we don't stay faithful by obeying god.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

This scripture plainly expresses that we have to work out our salvation so you comment that works aren't necessary are false.

OK, lets look at the two verses you provide: 1John 3:24 - This verse is not at all claiming that we are saved by works, or are maintaining our salvation by works. It says that those who dwell in Christ keep his commandments. Look at the verse that immediately precedes v. 24: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23) He dwells in Christ is one who has kept this commandment. If you are dwelling in Christ you know it, because you have obeyed His commandment to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 24 goes on to tell us where our assurance lies. It says that we know that he abideth in us by the Holy Spirit which HE has given to us. The Holy Spirit according to Eph.1:14 is the earnest, the guarantee of our inheritance. I don't have to depend on myself to produce the assurance that I am saved. Some days my works are good, some days they are bad. I can't depend on my works to gain access to heaven. I would never know from one day to the next if I was going to make it or not. But praise God!! I have the assurance of faith given to me because according the verse you provided, Jesus dwells in heart in the person of the Holy Spirit, and that is all the assurance I need that I am saved, and that I am going to heaven.

2 John 1:19 - Whoever transgresses... tell me cardcaptor, did you sin yesterday? Did you think a wrong thought? Did you do or say something, even something little, that did not look like Jesus? Have you transgressed ONCE since you were saved? By the standard YOU set, then you, yourself are not saved.

Here is what John is talking about. He is not talking about maintaining salvation. John is telling us by the Holy Spirit, how to know those who are genuine believers. The transgression that John is referring to is not the sins resulting from the human foibles to which all of us succumb from time to time, but he is referring to those who reject the doctrine of Christ and refuse to governed by it. They are those are "antiChrist" according to John who reject that Christ has come in the flesh. John is providing an indicator by which we can know whose profession is genuine. He is not saying that if you were weak today and fell into temptation and sin, that you are no longer abiding in Christ. That is not his point at all.

I do not have time to exegete all of the verses you provided, but I have shown just in the first two that you are simply way off in your understanding of what the Bible says. I have demonstrated the danger that comes from just taking verses at face value and disregarding sound biblical interpretative principles. You are in need of more sound doctrinal study and understanding.

QUOTE

We do not gain "access" to grace. If you have to gain "access" to it, it is not grace. Grace is the gift that gives us access to father. The outworking of our salvation is the product of being saved. It is our response the salvation we have receieved. It is not the means of gaining salvation.

You are absolutly correct, but as I just said, salvation is free to everybody and asscessable at any time. That is just getting your foot in the door. Getting saved is just the first step. Now you have to keep it. It is like a college professor gives an "A" at the beginning of the semester, but is up to you to keep it.

College professors do not "give" out "As". It is earned by a student, and therefore is not the proper analogy to demonstrate grace. Grace is not something you work to earn and then work to maintain. Again, you don't understand grace at all. Grace is a free gift that is given independent of your failures and shortcomings. Grace has no value to the person who can maintain their salvation. Grace is not a reward for the righteous, it is a gift for the guilty. Grace is God's favor and mercy extended to a person who deserves God's contempt and judgement. Grace finds its value in our inability to meet God's righteous standard. Grace is for those who cannot live up to the righteous requirements of God's law; that means that grace is for everyone.

Your notion that we have to work to be saved is detrimental to the Gospel because it takes the focus off of Jesus and places it upon you. It makes YOU the guarantor of your salvation. It therefore, robs God of His due glory. It is God and God alone who should get 100% of the praise and the glory for salvation. Instead, you are wanting to attribute the maintenance of your position in Christ to yourself. You, and not God, are keeping you saved. That is anathema to God. Salvation from beginning to end must be work of God, and not a work of man. It is for His glory, and not for ours. If you can maintain your salvation, it gives you cause to boast in yourself and how good you are. God saved us so that we could boast in nothing but the cross.

[Smalcald]

I agree about grace, the whole point or definition is that it cannot be earned, that is what grace means essentially.

But a Biblical case can be made that the Holy Spirit comes in a special way during Baptism, that it is more than just a ritual, that something very real is happening during baptism, to help us, it is to our benefit. Baptism benefits the Christian, it is the joining of a visible element with the Word of God, and something that we are commanded to do by Christ, which is essentially the definition of a Sacrament.

But I think as long as we do it, we are fine and we all I think agree it needs to be done as Christ commanded us. But once again honest, intelligent and biblically based Christians will and have come to different conclusions about Baptism. I don't know of any Christians who would deny though that it needs to be done, but maybe I am wrong?

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree about grace, the whole point or definition is that it cannot be earned, that is what grace means essentially.

But a Biblical case can be made that the Holy Spirit comes in a special way during Baptism, that it is more than just a ritual, that something very real is happening during baptism, to help us, it is to our benefit. Baptism benefits the Christian, it is the joining of a visible element with the Word of God, and something that we are commanded to do by Christ, which is essentially the definition of a Sacrament.

But I think as long as we do it, we are fine and we all I think agree it needs to be done as Christ commanded us. But once again honest, intelligent and biblically based Christians will and have come to different conclusions about Baptism. I don't know of any Christians who would deny though that it needs to be done, but maybe I am wrong?

Baptism is not optional. Jesus commanded us to be baptized. Just because it is commanded, does not mean it is necessary for salvation, though. It IS necessary, as it is an act of obedience and is the first ordinance to be observed by a New Testament Christian. God has no "unnecessary" commandments. The issue here, is what baptism is necessary for.

There are eight different baptisms in the Scriptures, and therefore what is needed, is for people to study which type of baptism is being referred to in a given text. For example, Romans 6:3-4 is not talking about water immersion, but I see that text constantly applied as referring to water immersion.

What are the seven baptisms?

1. The baptism of the Israelites "unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (I Cor 10:2)
   
   
2. The "baptism of John" (Mt 21:25; Mk 11:30- Acts 19:3, etc.), which was a baptism "of repentance" Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Acts 19:4, etc.)
   
   
3. The baptism attributed to Christ before the cross "Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples" did the baptizing (Jn 4:1-2; 3: 22)
   
   
4. The baptism Christ had to endure of suffering and death- - - " I have a baptism to be baptized with" (Lk 12:50- Mt 20:22; Mk 10:38)
   
   
5. The baptism Christ now performs on His own "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Mt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:33
   Acts 1:5,11:16)
   
   
6. The baptism by the Holy Spirit "into Jesus Christ" (Rom 6:3; Gal 3:27) and thereby "into his death" (Rom 6:4; Co] 2:12)
   
   
7. The baptism by the Holy Spirit into the church, the one body of Christ (I Cor 12:13)
   
   
8. And of course, there is new Testament Baptism, or water immersion commanded, among other places, in Matt. 28:18-20.
   

Not reading a text in light of what the author is trying to convey is very dangerous and amounts to us reading our own subjective interpretation into the text. That is why "face-value" is such a sloppy means of interpretation. It prevents us from understanding the author's intent, and allows us to make the words mean what we want them to mean.

[nebula]

Interesting points, Shiloh.

I just want to add my two cents about baptism.

I believe the church does a great injustice to people by making them wait several months and go through a special class before they can get baptised.

In Acts, people were baptised upon confession of faith. (We see that with the Ethiopean eunuch and the household of Cornelius in particular.) There was no need for a class. There was no waiting.

So why do we do this now?

There's no need for public Sunday morning display, either.

Ok, that's my rant.

[EricH]

Interesting points, Shiloh.

I just want to add my two cents about baptism.

I believe the church does a great injustice to people by making them wait several months and go through a special class before they can get baptised.

In Acts, people were baptised upon confession of faith. (We see that with the Ethiopean eunuch and the household of Cornelius in particular.) There was no need for a class. There was no waiting.

So why do we do this now?

There's no need for public Sunday morning display, either.

Ok, that's my rant.

We don't do that. If a person comes to Christ they can be baptized as soon as they want. We try to do it in front of the church (not necessarily on Sunday), so there can be a family celebration. When we do it, everyone cheers and claps after every baptism

[Guest shiloh357]

In our Church, you usually get baptized within a week. That way they have a dry change of clothes. We don't have any way of baptizing someone without getting their clothes wet. No one is allowed to be "in the buff" under their baptismal robe We usually suggest that they bring a pair jeans and t-shirt to wear under their robe.

[Smalcald]

Shilo,

"It IS necessary, as it is an act of obedience and is the first ordinance to be observed by a New Testament Christian. God has no "unnecessary" commandments. The issue here, is what baptism is necessary for."

So for your view, baptism in necessary for an act of obedience?

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh