The Problem Of Swaggering

[AnOrangeCat]

On 10/1/2024 at 4:51 PM, Cyoder said:

I've never experienced this at Church, but I've seen it many times.  I think the behavior is the same.  The person who is arrogant, loud and tells you how great they are can rarely back it up with actions.  I always look at the fruits. I've witnessed this at many competitions.

I've even seen instances of it online in the form of people who are quite proud of their intelligence/perceived intelligence and always want to get in the last word. Best not to engage with them but when they turn on the arrogance or start acting condescending toward others the temptation is certainly there for me.

The general opinion here has been to grin and bear it and leave it to God, but I somewhat disagree with that. As Mr. M and I both pointed out Jesus gave us a protocol for dealing with problematic individuals. In I Corinthians 5 Paul told the Corinthians told us not to have anything to do with people who claimed to be Christian yet were involved in certain activities, ending by telling us that we're to judge those within the church.

Obviously this is to be done in love rather than malice or trying to get even for any real or perceived slights. Galatians 6:1 tells us that if we see someone overtaken in a fault to restore them in the spirit of meekness.

What I get from all that is while we can let things slide as individuals, as a collective group of believers we have an obligation to perform some level of watching for sin and problematic behaviors and attitudes in each other, and if necessary, work to correct correct them. But it does call for a lot of discernment to separate things like personal grudges, personality conflicts, and misunderstandings from genuine issues.

Edited October 3, 2024 by AnOrangeCat

[farouk]

22 hours ago, Cyoder said:

I've never experienced this at Church, but I've seen it many times.  I think the behavior is the same.  The person who is arrogant, loud and tells you how great they are can rarely back it up with actions.  I always look at the fruits. I've witnessed this at many competitions.  The quiet humble person with great focus is the one I watch.  If you are good at something, others will tell you.  You won't have to tell them.  I didn't compete for others, I did it for me.  Worshipping God should be the same.  Matthew 6:6 - But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Hi @Cyoder I think that Hebrews 12.2 can be a good antidote: 'Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God'.

[Marathoner]

9 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I've even seen instances of it online in the form of people who are quite proud of their intelligence/perceived intelligence and always want to get in the last word. Best not to engage with them but when they turn on the arrogance or start acting condescending toward others the temptation is certainly there for me.

The general opinion here has been to grin and bear it and leave it to God, but I somewhat disagree that that. As Mr. M and I both pointed out Jesus gave us a protocol for dealing with problematic individuals. In I Corinthians 5 Paul told the Corinthians told us not to have anything to do with people who claimed to be Christian yet were involved in certain activities, ending by telling us that we're to judge those within the church.

Obviously this is to be done in love rather than malice or trying to get even for any real or perceived slights. Galatians 6:1 tells us that if we see someone overtaken in a fault to restore them in the spirit of meekness.

What I get from all that is while we can let things slide as individuals, as a collective group of believers we have an obligation to perform some level of watching for sin and problematic behaviors and attitudes in each other, and if necessary, work to correct correct them. But it does call for a lot of discernment to separate things like personal grudges, personality conflicts, and misunderstandings from genuine issues.

Well said. Due to problems I had with being aggressively argumentative in my youth, particularly whenever I encountered a perceived injustice committed against others, the Lord silenced me. I am not an avenger nor am I needed to do anything of that kind; the Lord silenced me when someone I had set aside my own life to serve and protect turned on me in an instant. Why did this happen?

Because I informed them that I serve our Lord Jesus Christ, and that He loves them like no other. This individual hated Christians with a passion and they unleashed everything they had in order to offend me and drive me away. What did this individual say?

All Christians are hypocritical liars. The Spirit commanded me to say nothing in response, only to continue serving her as He instructed me to do when I first met them. She was my adopted mother. Did her efforts hurt?

Yes, very deeply. Her words and actions were like knives, and she would lash out at me all day long like an erupting volcano; the Lord instructed me to say nothing and find work on her land well out of her sight until the volcanic outburst was over. It continued that way for a year.

One day, she came at me like a lunatic. She started throwing objects in the room all over the place (some directed at me), and screamed at the top of her lungs to get out. So, after she left the room, I packed my clothes for a swift exit...

But the Lord stopped me, saying that I was going nowhere. Just then, my adopted mother found me in the driveway at the front gate with a confused look on her face. She asked me where I was going?

I told her that I wasn't going anywhere. She was relieved.

She didn't remember any of the events which led me to pack up and leave. I said to the Lord, I see it now: she suffers from early stage dementia. 

Yes, she was treated horribly and abandoned by her children and family... and they are all Christian. The Lord revealed that, by remaining silent and continuing to help her regardless of how hard she tried to offend me and drive me away, she would at last come to understand how He loves her like no other. 

That's why the Lord sent me to her. As for remaining silent and denying this flesh regardless of what she said or did, that was the lesson for me to learn. It was the beginning of my calling in Christ as a servant. 

So, I learned not to engage those who relish disputation. I simply remain silent. Does another desire to have the last word? Let them receive the desire of their heart. There is wisdom in silence. 

[AnOrangeCat]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

One day, she came at me like a lunatic. She started throwing objects in the room all over the place (some directed at me), and screamed at the top of her lungs to get out. So, after she left the room, I packed my clothes for a swift exit...

I'm sorry you went through that. It's very relatable. My grandmother on my father's side ended up with dementia, and I was pretty much the sole caregiver. Even prior to her dementia she had some deeply seated notions that would have been nice if they reflected reality, but they often don't. The cornerstone of this was that if she thought if she was generous to other people they would reciprocate.

Her son and my sisters most certainly didn't, and strongly took advantage of it. Consequently my grandmother had a lot of bitterness and anger in her over that. When the dementia was going full swing she lacked any real focus or context for what all had built up over the years, and it manifested much like the sort of things you described.

I learned a whole lot about sucking it in and keeping quiet during that time. I suspect that very turbulent time in my life was both to solidify my own faith and to let her stay in her own home as long as possible in her final days. She had to go to the nursing home in her final few months, which I suspect was just a consequence of her refusal to manage her diabetes and God seeing to my safety as well as that of others. By that point she was genuinely a danger to herself and others on account of things like aggressively insisting on driving despite being a road hazard. I saw instances of her driving in the middle of the road without even being aware of it.

Overall a very profound experience in seeing how all things work together for those who love God, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time.

[Marathoner]

He builds us up, @AnOrangeCat. I was humbled when, due to the plain example of her suffering and how much she needed someone trustworthy to stand for her during this time in her life, the Lord reminded me of how He loved us even when we were His enemies. Indeed, the Lord gave Himself for a swaggering lot of insolent men and women...

So, being well-acquainted with His grace, longsuffering, and kindness, how could I possibly withdraw the same from one in need? I couldn't do that! In my adopted mother's case, she never progressed to the late stage of dementia. No matter my inability to grasp a matter the Lord declared that her heart would soften, and the day would come when she would confess that she knew she was loved. That happened before she passed on. How can I forget that day?

I was moving things around in the front porch when she rushed out of her bedroom toward me. She grabbed my shoulders and cried out, "I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that you love me!" She held me tight and cried for a long time. Her pain was released at last. She didn't say that to me... she said it to the Lord. The Lord is so kind to us all. 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Marathoner

[farouk]

This is a searching thread..........

[BibleStudent100]

11 hours ago, Marathoner said:

She didn't remember any of the events which led me to pack up and leave. I said to the Lord, I see it now: she suffers from early stage dementia.

I know dementia is not part of this thread, but I have extreme sympathy for those who care for family members who suffer from dementia, or any of its manifestations.  Dealing with these good folks is so challenging!  My wife and I ushered my father and her mother through dementia until the "end," and we learned a lot.  We sometimes failed in our tolerance and acceptance of our parents.  And certainly frustration and even anger on our part was embarrassingly shown toward them both on occasion and I have regrets about that to this day, but it is so difficult to deal with the illogical and maddening behaviors of our parents.  Still, we have to show tender affection and patience toward them.  

A few scriptures come to mind regarding caring for dementia patients:

Proverbs 23:22:  "Listen to your father who caused your birth,
And do not despise your mother just because she has grown old."

Leviticus 19: 32: "32 “‘Before gray hair you should rise up, and you must show honor to an older man, and you must be in fear of your God. I am the Lord."

Again, I honor and respect anyone who works with older patients as dealing with a faulty brain that worsens regularly is a sad way to end a life that was filled with triumph and praise for our Creator.  But God's kingdom is the answer!
 

[Marathoner]

Denying this flesh does indeed relate to the problem of swaggering we might encounter, both in ourselves and in others. Encountering the "storm" of inexplicable behaviors while walking in the Spirit accomplished many lessons:

First, I had petitioned the Lord to teach me righteous judgment;
Second, I had asked the Lord for endurance so I might serve Him regardless of the weather;
I am His student, and He is the Master, and so I asked the Lord to teach me His ways.  

The Lord is pleased to grant whatever we ask according to His will. 

This prepared me for what was to come in the years ahead. Having been stabbed by the knives of one whom I loved dearly, I was prepared to receive blows delivered by strangers in need. The latter was more excruciating than the former. Having been mocked by the insolent, I came to understand how the Lord stood silent before His accusers. The student is not greater than his Master. 

For ourselves, we abandon pride: we have no cause to swagger. We did not create ourselves, nor did we counsel the Lord at any time. Encountering the prideful swagger of another, we have no cause for offense. Let them receive their reward, for what they seek is all they shall receive. If we are moved to speak to the prideful let us do so in meekness, remembering that we are not beyond swaggering ourselves. 

[Marathoner]

The end of this flesh is not an easy process to witness. I have spoken to the Lord about the certainty of dementia in myself when the end comes; it might happen sooner or later on account of the muscular dystrophy I inherited from my mother. There are many causes behind dementia, and that's one of them.

How does this relate to the problem of swaggering? Pride stood in the way of forgiving my mother, my friends. "I am not like her, Lord!" That's not true. 

I am my mother's son regardless of what transpired under her roof. What afflicted her most assuredly afflicts me and when I learned about what she had suffered during her life before I knew her, I was silenced by that knowledge. I never knew because she never spoke a word to me... but she had confided in my oldest sister. 

In the end, her hatred of me was fueled by dementia. There was no mistaking the signs. I was comforted by the knowledge that my eldest sibling was with her when she passed. That was sufficient; the Lord saw fit to bless me with the opportunity to be with my adopted mother until the end of her time on earth. That was more than sufficient...

My adopted mother urged me to forgive my mother after my birth mother had passed away. She saw the effect that her passing had upon me. She spoke the same words of the Spirit who bid me to do the same, knowing about the tragedy and horror of her upbringing. Not only that, but the Lord has forgiven me of so much that I repented of the error of my ways, and so the forgiveness of my mother arrived with the exit of pride. Here's what forgiveness means:

We advocate for one who has trespassed against us. We say to the Lord, "Lord, I hold nothing against this one." I said this to the Lord about my mother. I hold nothing against her! It was such a relief to be released from the terrible burden of pride. 

Pride stands in the way of forgiveness. 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Marathoner

[Michael37]

8 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Denying this flesh does indeed relate to the problem of swaggering we might encounter, both in ourselves and in others. Encountering the "storm" of inexplicable behaviors while walking in the Spirit accomplished many lessons:

This is true life stuff. The contrast between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh is like the contrast between light and dark.

1Co 12:25  That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

Showing care and respect for an ambitious member of the congregation who is bossing and dominating others certainly entails having a desire to avoid schismatic fallout, but in my experience the desire must also be accompanied by action.

Another thought is that the body of Christ is not a synonym for a local assembly, which often consists of unsaved and unsanctified individuals.