Mature Universe Theory

[BeyondET]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please explain what is meant by "why is IT mentioned during creation week?"  Define the "it".  And please point me to "the creation week" you note.

Thanks.

The destruction you mentioned. The six days in Genesis, pointing to the first day.

Edited October 27, 2024 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

  FreeGrace said:

Please explain what is meant by "why is IT mentioned during creation week?"  Define the "it".  And please point me to "the creation week" you note.

Thanks.

The destruction you mentioned. The six days in Genesis.

The destruction is described by the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and found also in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  There is no context for the words in Gen 1:2 but in both Jer and Isa the context is the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  That would be the only reason Jeremiah would quote from Gen 1:2 and use those same words.

v.2 actually reads in the Hebrew:  but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

That shows that the earth needed to be restored.  That's what the 6 days are.  God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.

[BeyondET]

Just now, FreeGrace said:

The destruction is described by the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and found also in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  There is no context for the words in Gen 1:2 but in both Jer and Isa the context is the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  That would be the only reason Jeremiah would quote from Gen 1:2 and use those same words.

v.2 actually reads in the Hebrew:  but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

That shows that the earth needed to be restored.  That's what the 6 days are.  God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.

The heavens too?

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

The heavens too?

The issue focuses on the earth.  But it's obvious that God put the Sun, moon etc in place during the restoration, so it would seem there was disruption in the heavens as well.  

Paul wrote about "the whole creation groaning" in Rom 8:22 - We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

I expect we'll get all the details when we get to eternity.

 

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The destruction is described by the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and found also in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  There is no context for the words in Gen 1:2 but in both Jer and Isa the context is the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  That would be the only reason Jeremiah would quote from Gen 1:2 and use those same words.

v.2 actually reads in the Hebrew:  but the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

That shows that the earth needed to be restored.  That's what the 6 days are.  God restored a wrecked earth for man's use.

In Jeremiah I agree, in Genesis the earth was like a building to be built and the building is in pieces ready for assembly. Not a building that was built than destroyed to be rebuilt again. In the beginning earth was unsightly didn't resemble a planet.

Edited October 28, 2024 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The issue focuses on the earth.  But it's obvious that God put the Sun, moon etc in place during the restoration, so it would seem there was disruption in the heavens as well.  

Paul wrote about "the whole creation groaning" in Rom 8:22 - We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

I expect we'll get all the details when we get to eternity.

 

A disruption would be all lights out. And would be a second let there be light which scripture doesn't mention two lights in the beginning.

Yes the universe didn't exist once, it was born and still growing in the womb bubble it exist. Doesn't go on forever.

Edited October 28, 2024 by BeyondET

[Sparks]

4 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

Likewise, I know the universe is very old because the stars are at a vast distance (d) and we know the speed of light (c) which is a constant.  d/c= time.  It's solid evidence just like a spherical earth. So why are we denying this?

I guess your evidence of this is self refuting.   c is not a constant, and our distance measurement methods don't work at great distances, and I told you all about it.  

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

In Jeremiah I agree, in Genesis the earth was like a building to be built and the building is in pieces ready for assembly.

Huh?  There is no evidence that God spreads out pieces and then puts them together like a zigsaw puzzle.  In fact, Psa 33:65 and 9 say that God creates by speaking things into existence, out of nothing.  That is what Gen 1:1 is about;  God spoke "the heavens and earth" into existence.  No evidence that He spoke pieces into existence and then spent time putting them all together.

Just read through what God did during the restoration in Genesis 1.  

v.3 - And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

The Hebrew is clear:  And God said, "light, BE!"  and light WAS.  That is how God creates.

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Not a building that was built than destroyed to be rebuilt again. In the beginning earth was unsightly didn't resemble a planet.

The earth isn't a tinkertoy, or building, or Lincoln logs, to be assembled.  Nor is the universe.  God spoke everything into existence.  

You're just trying to 'splain the Septuagint and ignore the obvious conclusions.

Fact:  both Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe the total destruction of the land.  When land is totally destroyed so that it becomes uninhabitable, don't you think the land would also be unsightly?  Of course it would.

Trying to explain away verses and words that are inconvenient to one's viewpoint is not the way to read Scripture.  Take it for what it says.  Not what one thinks it SHOULD say.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

A disruption would be all lights out. And would be a second let there be light which scripture doesn't mention two lights in the beginning.

Not following this.  No one said there would be 2 lights in the beginning.  v.1 is quite plain:  God created the heavens and earth.  Period.  And what God creates is good.  Always.

The issue is the wording of v.2, which shows, in the Hebrew for those with ears to hear, that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

This is born out by seeing how "tohu" and "tohu wabohu" are translated elsewhere in the OT.  "tohu" occurs in 10 verses, 3 of which include 'wabohu'.

The website biblehub.com shows 10 occurrences of "tohu".

 

Gen 1:2 - was formless

Isa 45:18 - it a waste place,

Isa 45:19 - Me in a waste place

1 Sam 12:21 - for they [are] vain.

Job 26:7 - empty space

Isa 24:10 - of chaos

Isa 34:11 - of desolation

Isa 44:9 - of them futile,

Isa 59:4 - in confusion

Jer 4:23 - waste/wasteland

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Yes the universe didn't exist once, it was born and still growing in the womb bubble it exist. Doesn't go on forever.

Where did you get this from?  When God created the universe, it has existed since its creation.  I have no idea what is claimed about "still growing in the womb bubble".  That is not biblical.

[tim_from_pa]

10 hours ago, Sparks said:

I guess your evidence of this is self refuting.   c is not a constant, and our distance measurement methods don't work at great distances, and I told you all about it.  

I did not bother answering you because your ad hoc evidence for (so-called)  the speed of light would assume uniformity to make everything in all directions appear that way.  Even young earth Creationism (link at the end) seems to be grappling for answers.  But we don't even have to go back in time to the origin.  Even our own galaxy is good enough - 100,000 light years across shows the truth that the age is greater than 6000 years.  Now stars that close we do know the distances and the speed of light in a vacuum.  If that changes, we could not do our own space communications to the fringes of our solar system. Needless to say, what happens to the energy when light finally slows down to reach us?  What happens is when we try to fit a very old universe into a 6000-year-old bag, we run into a bunch of contradictory problems, which BTW are the same as the issues the flat earthers face. This is the reason I stated one might as well become a flat earther as well because of their belief in the firmament and the close proximity of the sun, moon and stars (that handles the d/c problem for them). But when the day is done, Occam's razor is the truth.  

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/starlight/does-distant-starlight-prove-the-universe-is-old/