Mature Universe Theory

[FreeGrace]

47 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

You quote Scripture then add your opinion and interpretation

The Scripture speaks for itself.  Not difficult to understand the words.  I've not "interpreted" anything.  I've let the words SAY what they SAY.

47 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

that certainly isn't evidence or facts.

I'm sorry you don't recognize evidence/facts.

47 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Best you can do is say that's what I believe it's pointing too.

No, the best I can do is SHOW that "tohu wabohu" was used by Jeremiah and Isaiah to describe the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.  Anyone can read Jer 4 and Isa 34 and see for themselves what they were describing.

And that is why Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 when he was warning about and describing what was coming:  the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land.

And that is the ONLY REASON.

It is madness to even think that "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 can describes God's creative actions, and then the words describe the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land in Jer 4 and Isa 34.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, NConly said:

Over the next seven years, 47 scholars and theologians worked to translate the different books of the Bible

Please address the word "next" which is future tense, and "worked", which is past tense, in the same sentence.  

[NConly]

22 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Please address the word "next" which is future tense, and "worked", which is past tense, in the same sentence.  

after King James appointed 47 scholars and theologians to the committee

They the 47 scholars and theologians translated the languages into English.

 In other words someone from the 21 century would have a better chance of understanding someone's work from the 18th century than someone from the 39th century would.

[FreeGrace]

26 minutes ago, NConly said:

after King James appointed 47 scholars and theologians to the committee

They the 47 scholars and theologians translated the languages into English.

 In other words someone from the 21 century would have a better chance of understanding someone's work from the 18th century than someone from the 39th century would.

If the scholars research the words that they are translating and see how they are used elsewhere in Scripture, they will have a better understanding of what the words mean and how they are used.

[NConly]

6 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

If the scholars research the words that they are translating and see how they are used elsewhere in Scripture, they will have a better understanding of what the words mean and how they are used.

I do not know the Hebrew language, I have read that many words have variations of meaning. It appears you do not believe a Hebrew word can have a variation of meaning in different context.

[The Barbarian]

On 10/27/2024 at 4:34 PM, tim_from_pa said:

That's a terrible thing to say about a family member; yes some people believe in a flat earth the same way young earth (and universe) creationists do claiming biblical authority.

Yes.   If you read the Bible with a strict literalist bent, it does say that the Earth is flat.   But it would be a very strict literalist bent.

[farouk]

5 hours ago, NConly said:

I do not know the Hebrew language, I have read that many words have variations of meaning. It appears you do not believe a Hebrew word can have a variation of meaning in different context.

I understand that Hebrew can been very obscure at times, many possible shades of meaning.

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, NConly said:

I do not know the Hebrew language, I have read that many words have variations of meaning. It appears you do not believe a Hebrew word can have a variation of meaning in different context.

I look at HOW words are used in texts.  Do you really believe that the words "tohu wabohu" can describe both God's creative act AND at the same time be used to describe the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land?

That is the core issue.  Can the 2 words together be used to describe creation AND destruction?

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That is the core issue.  Can the 2 words together be used to describe creation AND destruction?

Actually, the core question is whether a prophet, to illustrate a completely barren landscape, would quote scripture referencing a time before the creation of life; and whether because of that reference we should create an entirely new doctrine which conflicts with everything the Bible teaches about creation.  The Bible warned us about false doctrine in the latter days.  Ruin/Reconstruction was originated in the 1700’s.

[NConly]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I look at HOW words are used in texts.  Do you really believe that the words "tohu wabohu" can describe both God's creative act AND at the same time be used to describe the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land?

That is the core issue.  Can the 2 words together be used to describe creation AND destruction?

Well before creation there was nothing after creation it became something. In the case of the Earth it became an unlivable place covered in water. I think earth when created from nothing into something was without form and covered with water NOT became TOTAL DESTRUCTION as you seem to translate it.

By Michael L. Drake

Formless and Void: Really?

" Now the earth was formless and void ..." Thus Genesis 1:2.

 

What does it mean to be “formless and void”? Two Hebrew words are used: tohu and bohu, linked in Hebrew as tohu wabohu. Despite the confidence with which bohu is translated (after all, the translators have to put some word in the space!), nobody can be certain as to the exact meaning of bohu. It occurs three times in the Bible,[Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 34:11; Jeremiah 4:23] always in the tohu wabohu link, and never in any other known literature. The second and third occurrences clearly refer back to Genesis 1. In none of those three places is it defined. But the way it is linked to tohu, and the obvious rhythm and rhyme of tohu wabohu, serve unmistakably to reinforce the “tohu-ness” of tohu – whatever that might be. Whether it has a similar or nuanced meaning to tohu, or whether it is simply a nonce word coined to rhyme with the tohu and to reinforce it [cf Robert Alter] we cannot be certain. But its impact is clear enough in Hebrew and in translation the concept of tohu should be reinforced either by meaning, rhyme or both. Robert Alter translates it “welter and waste,” which has the desired rhythm and its assonance comes close to rhyme, but not much more clarity of meaning!