Mature Universe Theory

[FreeGrace]

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

 So why do you keep making up stuff?

Try reading the book.  All these came AFTER verse two.

Exactly!!  Restoration FOLLOWS the total destruction of the land.  To say it another way; restoration comes AFTER v.2.  As I've been pointing out all along.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 If God said “Let the be light,” that means that there was not already light.

And it doesn't mean there hadn't been light prior to the destruction of the earth.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 The same goes for everything else.

And ditto for everything else.  This is not complicated.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 There was no universe and no dry land.

Not before v.1 where God created "the heavens and earth".

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Not only does your claim not have a leg to stand on, it has no GROUND to stand on.  There WAS NO DRY LAND.

Again, were you there?  No more than Job was present at creation of the universe.  So quit acting like you were and you know things.  

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

NASB is corrupted.  It was published in 1971.  Q: which is closer to 500BC, 1611 or 1971.

What a hoot!  Just because it proves your unbiblical view of "tohu" you claim it is corrupted.  What is closer to the actual source:  1400 BC, 700 BC and 600 BC, or 1611 AD?

Your harping on "modern translations" is silly because I don't rely on any translation.  I've focused on the Hebrew, as written by Moses, Jeremiah and Isaiah.  I focus on "the actual source", which you have dismissed, in favor of your English translations.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

They did so at the completion of the real world, not your imaginary imperfect one that got wrecked by a different god.

I never said there was an "imperfect world" at creation.  That's your view, as based on the FACT that the Septuagint translates "tohu" as "chaos".  

So, please again, explain why God would create in steps that were described as "chaos" anyway?  Oh, you have no answer?  Of course you don't.

[BeyondET]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When the Bible mentions "creation", it always is in reference to the appearance of man (Adam).  Except Gen 1:1, when God created the whole universe.  

The Greek word "ktisis" which is translated 'creation', means "from a state of disorder and wildness".  Which fits the restoration of the earth in Genesis 1.

Bet me.

You pick what fits your fancy, like your word choices for Genesis 1:2, which the phrase is extremely difficult to translate to English in the first place. There is multiple meanings for it as well.

 

The Greek word ktisis has multiple meanings, including:

Creation: The act of creating, or the material universe

Created thing: A creature or created thing

Human creation: The human creation

Spiritual creation: A spiritual creation

Institution: An institution or ordinance 

 

Edited November 6, 2024 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

You pick what fits your fancy, like your word choices for Genesis 1:2

There is no "fancy" here.  I have simply researched where else "tohu wabohu" occurs in the OT and there are 2 other passages.  In BOTH passages the writer is warning the Israelites of coming total disaster of the land, and that is what "tohu wabohu" describes.  And there is no way Moses would use those 2 words in Gen 1:2 to describe creation when both other passages use the words to describe total destruction.

What is "fancy" is believing the 2 words can describe both creation and destruction.

32 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

which the phrase is extremely difficult to translate to English in the first place.

Nonsense.  Easy peasy.  Who told you the words are difficult to translate.  The only issue is that God left out details of who, what and why the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.

32 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

There is multiple meanings for it as well.

Sure.  Here they are:

Strong's Concordance

tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

Original Word: תֹּהוּ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tohu
Phonetic Spelling: (to'-hoo)
Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

NASB Translation
chaos (1), confusion (1), desolation (1), emptiness (1), empty space (1), formless (2), futile (2), futile things (1), meaningless (2), meaningless arguments (1), nothing (2), waste (3), waste place (2).

None of these uses can be used for creation.

32 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

The Greek word ktisis has multiple meanings, including:

Creation: The act of creating, or the material universe

Created thing: A creature or created thing

Human creation: The human creation

Spiritual creation: A spiritual creation

Institution: An institution or ordinance 

This is irrelevant.  The Greek word has a history, as I pointed in a previous post, where I named several scholarly sources that explain how the ancients understood it.

[BeyondET]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There is no "fancy" here.  I have simply researched where else "tohu wabohu" occurs in the OT and there are 2 other passages.  In BOTH passages the writer is warning the Israelites of coming total disaster of the land, and that is what "tohu wabohu" describes.  And there is no way Moses would use those 2 words in Gen 1:2 to describe creation when both other passages use the words to describe total destruction.

What is "fancy" is believing the 2 words can describe both creation and destruction.

Nonsense.  Easy peasy.  Who told you the words are difficult to translate.  The only issue is that God left out details of who, what and why the earth became an uninhabited wasteland.

Sure.  Here they are:

Strong's Concordance

tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

Original Word: תֹּהוּ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tohu
Phonetic Spelling: (to'-hoo)
Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

NASB Translation
chaos (1), confusion (1), desolation (1), emptiness (1), empty space (1), formless (2), futile (2), futile things (1), meaningless (2), meaningless arguments (1), nothing (2), waste (3), waste place (2).

None of these uses can be used for creation.

This is irrelevant.  The Greek word has a history, as I pointed in a previous post, where I named several scholarly sources that explain how the ancients understood it.

 

every Bible scholar I've read who talks about the subject

Tohu Va-Vohu.

Easy peasy isn't what you said a few pages ago. On top of that you have never translated Hebrew to English so you don't have a clue if it's easy or not.

Edited November 6, 2024 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

every Bible scholar I've read who talks about the subject

Well, it seems you need to keep reading.  Regardless, I have presented the facts about what the literal Hebrew means, so there is still no excuse for believing an erroneous English translation

"formless", my eye.  There is no such state of being.  All objects HAVE form, because all objects are 3 dimensional, and you quoted a source that defined 'form' as 3 dimensional and 'shape' as 2 dimensional.  So again, you have no excuse for accepting 'formless' for what "tohu" means.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Tohu Va-Vohu.

Scholars disagree on the spelling.  So what?  I learned the Hebrew words as "tohu wabohu", which is how biblehub.com presents it.

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Easy peasy isn't what you said a few pages ago.

Oh, really?  What did I say "a few pages ago"?  

This is what you said:  

which the phrase is extremely difficult to translate to English in the first place.

The sentence in v.2 isn't difficult to translate at all.  

2 hours ago, BeyondET said:

On top of that you have never translated Hebrew to English so you don't have a clue if it's easy or not.

I don't have to.  There are an abundance of Hebrew lexicons, plus English translations of the Septuagint that all show how "tohu" is translated.

And I provided ALL the ways "tohu" is translated in biblehub.com so I don't need to translate anything.

I also have shown how "tohu wabohu" was used by Jeremiah and Isaiah to describe the coming total destruction of the land, which is WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2.  He DID understand what Moses meant by those words.

To claim "tohu wabohu" can describe a step in God's creation AND at the same time describe the total destruction of the land is absurd.

Of course there are English words that have opposite meanings which depend on context.  But NO ONE has proven that "tohu wabohu" is one of those kind of words.

[BeyondET]

12 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, it seems you need to keep reading.  Regardless, I have presented the facts about what the literal Hebrew means, so there is still no excuse for believing an erroneous English translation

"formless", my eye.  There is no such state of being.  All objects HAVE form, because all objects are 3 dimensional, and you quoted a source that defined 'form' as 3 dimensional and 'shape' as 2 dimensional.  So again, you have no excuse for accepting 'formless' for what "tohu" means.

Scholars disagree on the spelling.  So what?  I learned the Hebrew words as "tohu wabohu", which is how biblehub.com presents it.

Oh, really?  What did I say "a few pages ago"?  

This is what you said:  

which the phrase is extremely difficult to translate to English in the first place.

The sentence in v.2 isn't difficult to translate at all.  

I don't have to.  There are an abundance of Hebrew lexicons, plus English translations of the Septuagint that all show how "tohu" is translated.

And I provided ALL the ways "tohu" is translated in biblehub.com so I don't need to translate anything.

I also have shown how "tohu wabohu" was used by Jeremiah and Isaiah to describe the coming total destruction of the land, which is WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2.  He DID understand what Moses meant by those words.

To claim "tohu wabohu" can describe a step in God's creation AND at the same time describe the total destruction of the land is absurd.

Of course there are English words that have opposite meanings which depend on context.  But NO ONE has proven that "tohu wabohu" is one of those kind of words.

You haven't translated anything, again you have no idea if it's difficult or not. I don't think it was formless and I don't believe it was destroyed either.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

You haven't translated anything

Yes, I said that.  In fact, this is what I said in my last post:

"And I provided ALL the ways "tohu" is translated in biblehub.com so I don't need to translate anything."

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

again you have no idea if it's difficult or not.

When 2 words are used to describe the total destruction in two separate texts, how hard is that to understand what Moses meant in Gen 1:2 when Jeremiah quoted from that verse?  

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

I don't think it was formless and I don't believe it was destroyed either.

Then what do you think the earth WAS?  Moses said it was something.  No, he actually said it became "tohu wabohu".

So go find any other text where these 2 words occur together and see what the context indicates.  

There is no context for "tohu wabohu" in Genesis 1:1.  But there is in Jer 4 and Isa 34.

This is not difficult.

I finished my last post with this:

"Of course there are English words that have opposite meanings which depend on context.  But NO ONE has proven that "tohu wabohu" is one of those kind of words."

Unless it can be shown that "tohu wabohu" does fit that kind of wording, and there is clear context for the words describing total destruction of the land, viewing Genesis 1 as a restoration has no refutation.

[FreeGrace]

It has been 5 days since I gave this challenge for YECers:

Unless it can be shown that "tohu wabohu" does fit that kind of wording, and there is clear context for the words describing total destruction of the land, viewing Genesis 1 as a restoration has no refutation.

Since have been no evidence that shows that "tohu wabohu" does act as a contronyms and mean opposite things in different contexts, the lack of evidence shows that the words do NOT acts as contronyms.

Therefore, the use of "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 shows that the earth did become a wasteland that was inhabitable, which is the reason that all that follows v.2 records a restoration of the earth, so that man would make the earth habitable again.

Case closed.

[Indentured Servant]

I believe in the seven days of creation... 

However, if God "created" the entire planet during at this time, why would He have created it dark and covered with water only to then remake it with light, dry land, and an atmosphere?

In order words, why didn't He just create it the way He envisioned it? 

Can anyone know how long it was dark and covered in water before He divided the waters, added an atmosphere, and positioned the sun and moon? If it was the same day, or same moment, why didn't He just do what He wanted to in the first place? 

The confusion lies in the words "create," and "earth."

Create refers to the presence of God using nonliving material to "create" life.

Earth, in scripture, refers only to a region, and until the twelfth century ad, earth never referred to the the entire planet. This planet was not called Earth until more than 5000 years after the word 'earth' was used in scripture. It is only an assumption that the biblical earth refers to the entire planet.

As far as Scripture reveals, life is a little more than six thousand years old; but the planet, itself, is likely closer to ten thousand years old, according to independent studies by Canadian and Russian scientists, (circa late 1900s).

As far as the entire universe, scripture does not specifically provide details on how or when it was made. Based on 3D modeling of the universe, it reveals we are nowhere near the center, and it is quite likely that after God made the universe, our planet was formed far from the center, and He traveled to it, searching for the perfect place to begin His creation, life.

I think it's silly to debate Young Earth and Mature Earth theories. We should respond to scripture based on God's plan, not its history.

[RV_Wizard]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Therefore, the use of "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 shows that the earth did become a wasteland that was inhabitable,

No, therefore we all gave up on you being educable by you saying the same things repeatedly despite all evidence to the contrary.