Mature Universe Theory

[RV_Wizard]

On 11/24/2024 at 4:26 PM, The Barbarian said:

Greek is much older than that.   

Did anyone ever point out to you that Greek and Hebrew are different languages?  Moses wrote in Hebrew.  He was educated in Egypt.  Either demonstrate that Moses was educated in the Greek language or admit that this is just another smokescreen from someone who attempts to discredit the Bible with every post. 

 

[FreeGrace]

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

And you have failed to explain how "tohu wabohu" can describe a stage of creation AND also describe total destruction of the land.  

I have explained it.  You can't comprehend it.

There is no rational/reasonable explanation, and you FAILED to prove that the words are a contronym.  What you presented is a word salad only.  Lots of lettuce but no meat.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Gap theory originated in the 1700's and the ONLY Bible translations that make allowance for your distortions were written toward the end of the 20th century. 

Talk about lack of comprehension.  My sources are the Bible itself and how "tohu wabohu" was used in the only 3 texts where they appear.

Moses wrote Genesis about 1400 BC.  Isaiah wrote about 700 BC and Jeremiah wrote about 600 BC.  And the Septuagint was written about 300 BC.

Those are my sources.  The original Hebrew.  What is your source.  A lousy English translation around 1100 AD.  I'm way ahead of you and your source.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Bible is NOT copyrighted.  ALL the newer versions are.  You cannot have a new copyright without making significant changes to the previous material.  Thus, ALL modern revisions are corrupted.

All irrelevant.  I didn't change the original writings.  I acknowledged them, but you have ignored them in FAVOR of your English translation.

39 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Try finding these verses in the NIV: Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44 and 9:46, Mark 15:28, Luke 17:36, John 5:3–4, Acts 8:37.  There are more, also.  How can you pretend that your newer, corrupted versions are accurate when they completely omit verses?

I'm not using "newer, corrupted versions"?  Review the dates of the sources I listed above.  I have provided original text words.  

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Did anyone ever point out to you that Greek and Hebrew are different languages?

Why would you ask such an insulting question?  Everyone knows that.

42 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Moses wrote in Hebrew. 

So did Jeremiah and Isaiah.  And all three used "tohu wabohu", and Jeremiah even quoted from Gen 1:2.

What is keeping you from accepting that what "tohu wabohu" describes in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11 is the SAME DESCRIPTION in Gen 1:2?

We don't get to pick and choose what specific words mean in certain passages.

[RV_Wizard]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Those are my sources.  The original Hebrew.

THERE IS NO ORIGINAL HEBREW!!  We have copies of copies.  The original scrolls were preserved by meticulous copies, NOT by being hermetically sealed in mayonnaise jars.  The most accurate of theses came out of Antioch, Syria.  The CORRUPTED copies from Alexandria, Egypt are what all modern revisions are based on.  Those revisions have copyrights, which they COULD NOT HAVE without changing the original text.

The NIV, the second most popular English version of the Bible, was released in 1978.  The KJV came out in 1611.  Would you say that 400 years of copies of copies would lead to greater or lesser accuracy?

KJV: Genesis 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”

NIV: Genesis 1:21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

The KJV mentions whales by name, stating that whales existed before any land animals.  The NIV does not mention whales, making it more compatible with the godless theory of evolution.  That's just one example.  There are many, many more.

Your reference material is flawed and corrupted.  The heresy you profess was made up by men in the 17th century.  Your "original Hebrew" dates all the way back to the 1970's.  That, my friend, is reality.  Deny it all you want.

How important was Genesis to the rest of the Bible?  Did anyone else quote from it?  Here is a total for you:

Quotes: 302
Allusions: 493
Possible allusions: 138
Total: 933

You base your heresy on two quotes you don't understand.  What about the other 931 references to Genesis?  

[RV_Wizard]

All distractions aside, does anyone have any Biblically compatible reasons why we should not conclude that the creation of a mature universe is a solid established fact?

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Those are my sources.  The original Hebrew.

THERE IS NO ORIGINAL HEBREW!!

lol.  This really "takes the cake"!  Then no one would know what was "originally" written.  I recommend thinking things through before typing.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  We have copies of copies.

Gee.  No kidding.  So what?  All the "copies of copies" are in Hebrew.  Guess you didn't know that, huh.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The original scrolls were preserved by meticulous copies, NOT by being hermetically sealed in mayonnaise jars.  The most accurate of theses came out of Antioch, Syria.  The CORRUPTED copies from Alexandria, Egypt are what all modern revisions are based on.  Those revisions have copyrights, which they COULD NOT HAVE without changing the original text.

Define a "corrupted copy" from Egypt.  And prove to me that the copies of copies from Syria didn't use "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 AND Jer 4:23 and Is 34:11.

If you can't prove that, your point evaporates.

And what is a "modern revision" of these "copies of copies"?  Prove that they changed original text.

btw, what in the world is your point here anyway?  You need to back up this insinuation that "original text" was "changed".  How so?  Provide what was changed from the "original text".  Oh, and btw, you began your post with "there is no original Hebrew", so it pretty much sounds as though you are whistling through your teeth.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The NIV, the second most popular English version of the Bible, was released in 1978.  The KJV came out in 1611.  Would you say that 400 years of copies of copies would lead to greater or lesser accuracy?

Are you kidding??  The KJV was ALSO "copies of copies" of manuscripts.  But now it seems ok to you?  You're not being consistent here.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

KJV: Genesis 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”

NIV: Genesis 1:21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Oh GEE!!  All my doctrines now have to be changed and rearranged because of this earth shaking news.  lol.  What's the big deal whether "great whales" or "great creatures" anyway?

That has no more effect on Scripture than the unknown time gap in Gen 1:1-2..

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The KJV mentions whales by name, stating that whales existed before any land animals.  The NIV does not mention whales, making it more compatible with the godless theory of evolution.  That's just one example.  There are many, many more.

Who cares?  And why is this tidbit important?

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Your reference material is flawed and corrupted. 

Why in the world would I believe anything you claim, given your track record of believing copies of copies for nearly 10 centuries (KJV) and unable to prove that the Egyptian OT texts are different than the Syrian texts, BOTH of which are also "copies of copies".  Me thinks you are just going in circles.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The heresy you profess was made up by men in the 17th century.

This is getting pretty tired.  Unless you can prove that "tohu wabohu" isn't found in in all 3 texts in the Syrian "copies of copies" BUT is in all 3 texts in the Egyptian "copies of copies", you have no argument.  

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Your "original Hebrew" dates all the way back to the 1970's.  That, my friend, is reality.  Deny it all you want.

How would you know?  So where is YOUR Hebrew source for the OT anyway?

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

How important was Genesis to the rest of the Bible?  Did anyone else quote from it?  Here is a total for you:

Quotes: 302
Allusions: 493
Possible allusions: 138
Total: 933

Of course Genesis is important to the rest of the Bible.  It establishes the very foundations of creation and humanity.  And the real time gap neither adds nor subtracts from any doctrines.  It's merely a fact to know.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You base your heresy on two quotes you don't understand.

Please remind me.  Your convoluted defense is hardly easy to follow.  So what "2 quotes" specifically.  And prove that I don't understand them.  As in, explain how the words mean something other than what I've presented.

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  What about the other 931 references to Genesis?  

What about them?  What is your point?  How are any of these "other 931 references to Genesis" related to the meaning of "tohu wabohu".
I'm arguing for the 2 Hebrew words, tohu wabohu".  You have yet to prove they are contronyms.  Can you prove that they are?  Just because there are contronyms doesn't mean "tohu wahohu" is one.  Even though you strongly wish they were.

[FreeGrace]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

All distractions aside, does anyone have any Biblically compatible reasons why we should not conclude that the creation of a mature universe is a solid established fact?

First, you're going to have to prove that the universe needed to be 'mature', whatever that means.

Maturity involves the concept of growth and development, like from a baby to an adult.  You are still grasping at straws trying to defend what is indefensible.

[The Barbarian]

On 11/27/2024 at 11:44 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Did anyone ever point out to you that Greek and Hebrew are different languages?

If your clam is that the Bible is incorrect, I'd be pleased to see your evidence for that.    The apostles wrote in Koine Greek.    If you think that they had it wrong, show us your evidence.   We where speaking of the meaning of σφαῖρα.

On 11/27/2024 at 12:27 PM, FreeGrace said:

Why would you ask such an insulting question?  Everyone knows that.

He's not trying to be insulting.    Sometimes he just gets a little overexcited.   

 

[Hinds Feet]

I would say its not so much God created a mature universe, but an ordered universe.  The "age" of it's appearance is based on scientific observation and reasoning.  The problem with science is, it doesn't take God into account at all.  It is solely based on testable observation.  And if something is based on our sight, that makes it extremely limiting in terms of whole truth.

At the end of it, I don't see an old universe (one that is billions of years old) and an old earth (over 4 billion years old) as being compatible with what is said concerning God in Scripture.  Think about it in this way for instance......

Scripture says Jesus is coming back soon and will reign on earth for a thousand years. (Some believe He will reign in heaven for a thousand years, but I disagree.  He's already reigning in heaven)  After that, there will be one final stand for the devil before he is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Following that, all the unrighteous dead will be judged and meet the same fate.  Then God will create a new heavens (I believe the universe) and new earth, and the Father will finally be among His people on the earth.  Question, will this new heavens and new earth take billions of years to form?  When God melt the elements of the old universe, will that take billions of years or more?  According to science, the universe will continue on for trillions of years, with us long dead, as well as all the stars in the universe.  That is the projection by science.

As believers knowing Jesus is coming back, we can say science's projection of the universe will not happen.  If it's projection is wrong, why not also say it is wrong concerning the history of the universe?  This is the limits of our sight and observation.  In truth we walk by faith and not by sight.

[RV_Wizard]

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

 Then no one would know what was "originally" written.

We have preserved copies.  Please learns something about history.

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

All the "copies of copies" are in Hebrew

Which is why King James gathered 40 of the top Hebrew experts in the world to translate over 400 years ago.  They used the copies preserved in Antioch, Syria because those were the most perfectly preserved copies.  They arranged the writings into verses and books to make it easier to read, but they were very careful to preserve the original text.  

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

You need to back up this insinuation that "original text" was "changed".

I already demonstrated that conclusively.  You can't get a copyright on ANYTHING without making significant changes.  Plus, there are many verses and words just left out.  Do you know the difference between "His only begotten son," and "one and only son," or "unique son?"  Satan could be called a "unique son" as well.  In fact, some heresies teach that Satan and Christ were brothers.  Why do you think all false teachers have their place in the lake of fire?  God takes His word very seriously.

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

What's the big deal whether "great whales" or "great creatures" anyway?

The fact that whales are mentioned by name as coming before any land dwelling animals; proof that they didn't "evolve."  Great creatures could be perverted to mean dinosaurs.

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

 Unless you can prove that "tohu wabohu" isn't found in in all 3 texts in the Syrian "copies of copies"

I've already proved that you don't understand the context of the reference.

On 11/28/2024 at 2:15 PM, FreeGrace said:

 How are any of these "other 931 references to Genesis" related to the meaning of "tohu wabohu".

It shows that Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and most of the key figures in the Bible referenced the book of Genesis for validation and emphasis; a concept you have yet to understand.