Mature Universe Theory

[RV_Wizard]

On 11/28/2024 at 2:16 PM, FreeGrace said:

Maturity involves the concept of growth and development, like from a baby to an adult.

Maturity and maturation are not synonyms.  Maturity is the adult state AFTER things have grown and developed.  Created mature means that not only were all the animals of reproductive age at creation, not only were the trees bearing fruit and the plants fully developed, that the earth was in the perfect mature state to support survival, complete with all the resources man would need.  God didn't have to let the earth simmer for a few billion years to get ready.

[RV_Wizard]

On 11/29/2024 at 9:54 AM, The Barbarian said:

The apostles wrote in Koine Greek. 

Please return to the atheist website you are using for your misinformation and remind them that the apostles didn't write a word of the Old Testament.  The New Testament was written mostly to the Gentiles, so it was written in the most common language; Greek.  The old Testament, written to the Jews, was recorded in Hebrew.  Moses, being educated in Egypt, more likely wrote in Egyptian or Canaanite, which was translated into Hebrew.  It is also entirely possible that the originals were recorded in the language of Ur.  Regardless, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they were translated into Hebrew by men inspired by God.  Incidentally, the 10 Commandments, carved by God, were said to be in Hebrew.  They were the target audience.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

I would say its not so much God created a mature universe, but an ordered universe.  The "age" of it's appearance is based on scientific observation and reasoning.  The problem with science is, it doesn't take God into account at all.  It is solely based on testable observation.  And if something is based on our sight, that makes it extremely limiting in terms of whole truth.

At the end of it, I don't see an old universe (one that is billions of years old) and an old earth (over 4 billion years old) as being compatible with what is said concerning God in Scripture.  Think about it in this way for instance......

Scripture says Jesus is coming back soon and will reign on earth for a thousand years. (Some believe He will reign in heaven for a thousand years, but I disagree.  He's already reigning in heaven)  After that, there will be one final stand for the devil before he is thrown into the Lake of Fire.  Following that, all the unrighteous dead will be judged and meet the same fate.  Then God will create a new heavens (I believe the universe) and new earth, and the Father will finally be among His people on the earth.  Question, will this new heavens and new earth take billions of years to form?  When God melt the elements of the old universe, will that take billions of years or more?  According to science, the universe will continue on for trillions of years, with us long dead, as well as all the stars in the universe.  That is the projection by science.

As believers knowing Jesus is coming back, we can say science's projection of the universe will not happen.  If it's projection is wrong, why not also say it is wrong concerning the history of the universe?  This is the limits of our sight and observation.  In truth we walk by faith and not by sight.

Gen 1:2 says, in the Hebrew, that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland (tohu wabohu).  Those 2 words are found just twice more, in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  And in both of those chapters, the text is a warning about the coming total destruction of the land.  In fact, Jeremiah even quotes from Gen 1:2.  

Can you explain how "tohu wabohu" can describe original creation and total destruction of the land?

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

 Then no one would know what was "originally" written.

We have preserved copies.  Please learns something about history.

Please don't be so condescending.  Everyone knows about preserved copies.  And all of them are copies of copies.  So what's your point.

At this point, the only way out of your mess is to prove your claim that the Syrian copies of copies doesn't have tohu wabohu in either Gen 1:2 or in neither of Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  Otherwise, you have no argument.  Because that IS the argument.  The 2 words found in Gen 1:2 which is "supposedly describing creation" is found in the other 2 accounts that clearly describe total destruction.

Or, prove with evidence that "tohu wabohu" is a contronym, since you brought that up as, I suppose, a defense for your theory.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Which is why King James gathered 40 of the top Hebrew experts in the world to translate over 400 years ago.  They used the copies preserved in Antioch, Syria because those were the most perfectly preserved copies.  They arranged the writings into verses and books to make it easier to read, but they were very careful to preserve the original text.

This proves nothing.  Please show evidence, specifically that the words "tohu wabohu" either don't appear in Gen 1:2, or that they don't appear in either Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  

  FreeGrace said:

You need to back up this insinuation that "original text" was "changed".

I already demonstrated that conclusively. 

No, you only insist such.  You've provided zero evidence to date.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You can't get a copyright on ANYTHING without making significant changes.

Do you actually expect me to believe that both Jeremiah and Isaiah had copyright to what Moses wrote in Gen 1??  Don't be silly.

I'm not talking about English translations, which is what you are totally hung up on.  I'm talking about text that was written in 1400 BC and quoted from in 700 BC and used in 600 C to describe the SAME THING as what Moses and Jeremiah were describing.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Plus, there are many verses and words just left out.

Who cares?  The only issue is what was done to Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11, where "tohu wabohu" occurs in all 3 texts.  Deal with just that, and please give proof.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Do you know the difference between "His only begotten son," and "one and only son," or "unique son?"  Satan could be called a "unique son" as well.

There is no difference, just different ways to express the SAME THING.  As to Satan, who even calls him a "son" anyway?  Please provide evidence for your claims, or they are empty claims.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  In fact, some heresies teach that Satan and Christ were brothers.

Why do you bother with such irrelevant drivel?  Who cares what the Mormons teach? How does that relate to our discussion anyway?  Please focus.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Why do you think all false teachers have their place in the lake of fire?  God takes His word very seriously.

Please focus on the discussion.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The fact that whales are mentioned by name as coming before any land dwelling animals; proof that they didn't "evolve."  Great creatures could be perverted to mean dinosaurs.

Who cares?  Please focus on the discussion.  Prove that "tohu wabohu" is a contronym.  Or you have no point or case.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I've already proved that you don't understand the context of the reference.

It appears you don't understand what "prove" really means.  

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It shows that Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and most of the key figures in the Bible referenced the book of Genesis for validation and emphasis; a concept you have yet to understand.

Of course they did.  Genesis is God's Word.  But the lazy English translations are not God's Word.  They are attempts at translating God's Word.  

Unless you can prove with evidence that the Syrian manuscripts (copies of copies) do not show "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 OR not in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11, your case is over.

Or that the words form a contronym.  I say they don't.  So prove that they do with evidence.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Maturity involves the concept of growth and development, like from a baby to an adult.

Maturity and maturation are not synonyms.

They are related.  

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Maturity is the adult state AFTER things have grown and developed.

That goes without saying.  Of course maturity cannot be before things have grown and developed.  btw, maturity is just another way of saying something grew up and developed.  Duh.

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 Created mature means that not only were all the animals of reproductive age at creation, not only were the trees bearing fruit and the plants fully developed, that the earth was in the perfect mature state to support survival, complete with all the resources man would need.  God didn't have to let the earth simmer for a few billion years to get ready.

I never even suggested that.  I fully believe Gen 1:1 referred to a universe and earth that was full developed because God spoke that kind of universe and earth into existence.

But you  have the notion that God created the earth in stages, or steps or by processes.

Prove it.  I claim Gen 1 is about a restoration, and that is what we see in the 6 days.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Moses, being educated in Egypt, more likely wrote in Egyptian or Canaanite, which was translated into Hebrew.

Where do you get your opinions from?  "more likely", sure.  Are you not aware that Moses wrote not only Genesis but the entire Pentateuch?  He led the Hebrews.  I guess you suppose that the slaves of the Egyptians were all forced to learn Egyptian.  

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It is also entirely possible that the originals were recorded in the language of Ur.  Regardless, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they were translated into Hebrew by men inspired by God.  Incidentally, the 10 Commandments, carved by God, were said to be in Hebrew.  They were the target audience.

I'm really not interested in your "entirely possibilities".  Let's just deal in facts.   If you have any.

[The Barbarian]

The apostles wrote in Koine Greek. 

13 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Please return to the atheist website you are using for your misinformation

Some erroneously teach that the New Testament was originally written in the
Hebrew language and was later translated into Greek. Because they have not studied the history of Palestine, they fail to realize that Hebrew had ceased to be spoken by the Jews many centuries before the New Testament era.

https://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_NT_Originally_Written_in_Greek.pdf

The Apostles wrote the New Testament, not the OT.    You're confused again.   

 

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/1/2024 at 1:06 PM, FreeGrace said:

Where do you get your opinions from?  

Actual research.  Moses was educated in Egypt, not Hebrew.  He learned Hebrew later.

Linguistic evidence suggests Hebrew became distinct from Canaanite around the 10th Century BC, however, whereas Moses is thought to have lived in the 13th, 14th, or 15th Centuries BC. So, he may have spoken Canaanite.

In any case, the best guess is that his native language was Egyptian, but given his legendary status, it’s quite difficult to say with any historical certainty.  source

The copies of the  Pentateuch we have were preserved in Hebrew, but of course those tasked with preserving and copying the original writings would have been versed in several languages.  Regardless, the words of God were preserved by God and remained unquestioned until the 1970's when the NIV and other (per)versions were printed.  Incidentally, Thomas Jefferson had his own (per)version, in which he took out the virgin birth and everything else he didn't believe.  The Jeffersonian version is NOT the preserved word of God.

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:20 PM, The Barbarian said:

The Apostles wrote the New Testament, not the OT. 

You DO realize that Moses wrote in the Old testament, not the new, right?

You DO realize that Genesis, Exodus, and the rest of the Pentateuch are part of the Old Testament, not the new, right?

You DO realize that none of the discussions of the modern (per)versions of the book of Genesis have anything to do with the New Testament, right?  Moses wasn't an apostle of Jesus.  He lived before Jesus ever came to live among us as a man.

While all the modern (per)versions of the Bible also distort the New Testament, that wasn't the point of our discussion.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  FreeGrace said:

Where do you get your opinions from? 

Actual research.  Moses was educated in Egypt, not Hebrew.  He learned Hebrew later.

You call that 'research'?  Do you think Moses wrote the Pentateuch before learned Hebrew, or what, exactly?  He was fully able to communicate with the Israelites at the age of 40 while he was STILL royalty in Egypt.  Do you know how old Moses was when he wrote Gen-Deut?

As to your answer, that is not "research".

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Linguistic evidence suggests Hebrew became distinct from Canaanite around the 10th Century BC, however, whereas Moses is thought to have lived in the 13th, 14th, or 15th Centuries BC. So, he may have spoken Canaanite.

What do you think the slaves of Egypt spoke?

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

In any case, the best guess is that his native language was Egyptian, but given his legendary status, it’s quite difficult to say with any historical certainty.  source

Well, so much for your "sources".  The Bible is clear that he spoke to the Israelites while he still lived in Egypt.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

The copies of the  Pentateuch we have were preserved in Hebrew, but of course those tasked with preserving and copying the original writings would have been versed in several languages.

So you seem to believe that the Pentateuch wasn't written in Hebrew then???

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Regardless, the words of God were preserved by God and remained unquestioned until the 1970's when the NIV and other (per)versions were printed. 

Again, my FACTS come from the Hebrew.  Moses wrote about 1400 BC, Isaiah wrote about 700 BC and Jeremiah wrote about 600 BC.  And Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 in Jer 4, a chapter warning about coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land, and you STILL believe that "tohu wabohu" is interchangeable with describing original creation AND total destruction of the land.  Interesting.   Very interesting.

You need to give up on your old saw about English translations in the 1970s.  They had no influence on my views about what the Hebrew says.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Incidentally, Thomas Jefferson had his own (per)version, in which he took out the virgin birth and everything else he didn't believe.  The Jeffersonian version is NOT the preserved word of God.

Is this important?  How do?  And, who cares?  Who carries around and reads Jefferson's own translation?  Is it even available?  So why bring that factoid up?