Mature Universe Theory

[The Barbarian]

The Apostles wrote the New Testament, not the OT. 

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You DO realize that Moses wrote in the Old testament, not the new, right?

You're confused again.   Moses was not an Apostle.    The Apostles wrote in Greek, and read scripture from old Greek translations.   Hebrew wasn't even an everyday language in Israel at the time.    The translators had interpreted "khug" (circle) to be "round" as in "the circle of the Earth."

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You DO realize that none of the discussions of the modern (per)versions of the book of Genesis have anything to do with the New Testament, right?

Actually, the OT is often cited in the NT.   Read it and learn.   Peter, for example, equated "erets" (land) with "kosmos" (known world, as in Caesar ordering a census of the Roman Empire).

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

While all the modern (per)versions of the Bible also distort the New Testament, that wasn't the point of our discussion.

We were talking about the distortions introduced by YE creationists.

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What do you think the slaves of Egypt spoke?

The language of their captors, for one.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible is clear that he spoke to the Israelites while he still lived in Egypt.

The Bible doesn't say what language he spoke to them in.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, my FACTS come from the Hebrew.

Your "facts" comes from copies of copies of copies interpreted into English in the 1970's, NOT from the original Hebrew.  In fact, you've been corrected by people who actually DO speak the language and you blew them off because their interpretations didn't fit what you've chosen to believe.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You need to give up on your old saw about English translations in the 1970s.

From your own posts, the only (per)versions that slightly conform to your claims came out after the NIV in the 1970's.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Who carries around and reads Jefferson's own translation?

Beginning in 1904 and continuing every other year until the 1950s, new members of Congress were given a copy of the Jefferson Bible. Until the practice first stopped, copies were provided by the Government Printing Office. A private organization, the Libertarian Press, revived the practice in 1997.  source

The official "bible" of the US government is false doctrine.

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Moses was not an Apostle. 

We were discussing interpretations of Genesis, not the New Testament or the apostles.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Actually, the OT is often cited in the NT. 

I said that very thing in an earlier post.  Read it and learn.

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

We were talking about the distortions introduced by YE creationists.

Really?  Since when?  I was talking about the distortions released in the 1970's and late based on corrupted copies from Alexandria, Egypt.  You are the only person in this thread to mention YEC.  Further, you are the only person promoting the lie that YEC is new doctrine.  Even the ruin/reconstruction crowd believe in the Bible as written AFTER Genesis 1:2.

[FreeGrace]

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

What do you think the slaves of Egypt spoke?

The language of their captors, for one.

The Bible doesn't say what language he spoke to them in.

Another name for Israelites is Hebrews.  

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Your "facts" comes from copies of copies of copies interpreted into English in the 1970's, NOT from the original Hebrew.

Then just show me what words are used in the original Hebrew in Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11.  Quit stalling if you have any facts.

btw, why you keep perseverating on the 1970s is weird.  On biblehub.com, the KJV, from the 1600's, has "formless and void" in Gen 1:2 and Jer 4:23 and "confusion and emptiness".  

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  In fact, you've been corrected by people who actually DO speak the language and you blew them off because their interpretations didn't fit what you've chosen to believe.

So who did I "blow off"?  What were their sources?  All your "talk" about the differences between Syrian and Egyptian copies of copies means nothing, since you haven't shown HOW they are different that relates to our discussion of what "tohu wabohu" means.  Empty talk.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

From your own posts, the only (per)versions that slightly conform to your claims came out after the NIV in the 1970's.

You've got nothing.  I've got 2 texts whose subject is warning about the coming total destruction of the land, where "tohu wabohu" is used to describe it.  It is quite obvious that Jeremiah fully understood what Moses meant in Gen 1:2 when he used "tohu wabohu" or he WOULDN'T HAVE quoted from the verse when describing total destruction of the land in Jer 4.

Why that hasn't sunk in is baffling.

30 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Beginning in 1904 and continuing every other year until the 1950s, new members of Congress were given a copy of the Jefferson Bible. Until the practice first stopped, copies were provided by the Government Printing Office. A private organization, the Libertarian Press, revived the practice in 1997.  source

The official "bible" of the US government is false doctrine.

So what?  How does any of that have any effect on our discussion.  Zip.

Why don't you explain how Jefferson's Bible translation is in error?  Not that it matters to our discussion.  But you can't even do that.

What you don't have is evidence that supports the lousy translation of Gen 1:2 in the KJV, which was written in 1611.  So forget your fascination with the 70s.  

You may many claims but have no evidence that backs up your claims.  They are hollow.

[The Barbarian]

Moses was not an Apostle. 

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

We were discussing interpretations of Genesis

Moses didn't interpret Genesis.    Think.

Actually, the OT is often cited in the NT. 

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

I said that very thing in an earlier post.

And then you forgot it again.   You're not very consistent.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Another name for Israelites is Hebrews.  

Etymologists have noted the ancient Egyptian term "habiru", meaning something like "wanderer" or "vagrant."   Possibly the Israelites were confused with the Habiru, because of their independent and nomadic way of life.

https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/from-habiru-to-hebrews-the-roots-of-the-jewish-tradition/

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, FreeGrace said:

Then just show me what words are used in the original Hebrew in Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11.

Read them for yourself in the KJV.  No need to post them here.

Learn something about the men you so cavalierly libel.

On 12/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, FreeGrace said:

So who did I "blow off"?  What were their sources?

I don't remember who the poster was, but they could read and write Hebrew and translated for themselves.  They stopped posting to you after your repeated nonsense about the "original Hebrew," to which you claim special knowledge greater than translators.  By the way, one of the KJV translators, Lancelot Andrewes, was fluent in at least 21 languages.  How many do you speak?

On 12/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, FreeGrace said:

 It is quite obvious that Jeremiah fully understood what Moses meant in Gen 1:2 when he used "tohu wabohu"

Yes, too bad you don't understand what Jeremiah said, because you are reading your agenda into the Bible instead of drawing the true meaning from the context.  

On 12/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, FreeGrace said:

Why don't you explain how Jefferson's Bible translation is in error?

Wow, you really DON'T know much about this topic do you?  Please educate yourself.

On 12/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, FreeGrace said:

What you don't have is evidence that supports the lousy translation of Gen 1:2 in the KJV, which was written in 1611.

I proved that all new versions have copyrights, which proves conclusively that they are changed from the original, preserved word of God.

You refuse to learn and cannot be educated,  You bring your favorite heresy into any Bible conversation.  I'm done with this topic.

The point of the thread was a mature creation, bot ruin/reconstruction heresy.

[RV_Wizard]

On 12/6/2024 at 10:28 PM, The Barbarian said:

Moses didn't interpret Genesis.  

Did you figure that one out by yourself?  NOBODY ever claimed he did.

 

[The Barbarian]

Moses didn't interpret Genesis.    

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

NOBODY ever claimed he did.

 

You seem to have trouble making up your mind,

Edited December 8, 2024 by The Barbarian

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said:

Then just show me what words are used in the original Hebrew in Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11.

Read them for yourself in the KJV.  No need to post them here.

I guess you just really don't want to get it, huh.  I said "in the original Hebrew".  Most would understand that as NOT being the KJV or any other ENGLISH version.

So, it's clear you are just avoiding the issue, right?  You would have a point ONLY IF the Hebrew words in Gen 1:2 aren't in the Hebrew words in either Jer 4:23 or Isa 34:11.

But, since they ARE IN all 3 verses, two of which describe the coming total destruction of the land, you have no point at all.  And you haven't proven otherwise.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Learn something about the men you so cavalierly libel.

Who am I libeling?  I've just pointed out that the majority of English translations aren't consistent in how they handle "tohu wabohu".  That's all.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I don't remember who the poster was, but they could read and write Hebrew and translated for themselves.  They stopped posting to you after your repeated nonsense about the "original Hebrew," to which you claim special knowledge greater than translators.

Your "claim" here that I have claimed "special knowledge" really reveals your sinful motives here (ie:  LYING).  I've made no such claim at all, as anyone who has been following this thread knows.  My source for the "original Hebrew" comes from biblehub.com, which I've noted several times.  

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  By the way, one of the KJV translators, Lancelot Andrewes, was fluent in at least 21 languages.  How many do you speak?

Who cares how many languages he spoke?  How does that relate to how poorly he translated Gen 1:2 and "tohu wabohu"?  Please focus on HOW the 2 words are used in ALL 3 passages, only 2 of which have context with which to understand the meaning of the words.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Yes, too bad you don't understand what Jeremiah said, because you are reading your agenda into the Bible instead of drawing the true meaning from the context.

Oh, actually, I was simply noting the context in Jer 4 and how SILLY it would have been for Jeremiah to quote a verse about original creation when he was warning about the coming TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the land by a besieging army that is a destroyer of nations.  More obvious that the nose on your face.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  Wow, you really DON'T know much about this topic do you?  Please educate yourself.

Says you.  Obviously I do know more than you, since your posts are just all over the map as you feverishly try to find new ways to defend what is so indefensible.

The guy who speaks 21 languages.  lol

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I proved that all new versions have copyrights, which proves conclusively that they are changed from the original, preserved word of God.

And once again I have to remind you that these "new versions with copyrights", no less, are irrelevant.  Because my point is based on 2 Hebrew words, "tohu wabohu" and how they were used in the only 3 passages where they occur.  So I don't need no stinkin' versions of anything, much less copyrights.  

You haven't proven that Moses used different words in Gen 1:2 than Jeremiah did in Jer 4:23.  And neither writings were copyrighted.  So, wowsers.

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You refuse to learn and cannot be educated

Getting desperate, I see.  As well as everyone else.  lol

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 You bring your favorite heresy into any Bible conversation.  I'm done with this topic.

It seems you just can't help yourself, and making FALSE judgments in all your posts to me.  

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The point of the thread was a mature creation, bot ruin/reconstruction heresy.

And, btw, you haven't proven that the creation needed to "mature", or grow up, or vegetate, etc.  When God created the universe, it was fully complete.  There is no evidence that anything needed 'more' of anything, which you seem to advocate.

Bottom line:  you have no evidence, no proof for the young earth theory.  

otoh, I've proved from 2 Hebrew words that the earth is way older than Adam.