Undo emphasis on the Trellis (supporting structure) & not enough on the Vine (Christ & branches)?

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That is, we should take care of our bodies, but only as for the purpose of carrying our soul and spirit where we need to go.  Too much focus on it is really just vain "window dressing."

                       

                  "we should take care of our bodies"
       "Too much focus on it is really just vain "window dressing."

              Yes, be a good steward of all that God has blessed us with.
             We were created for good works and a healthy body helps...
                        And a humble heart for washing feet.
Addendum; The most important worker in the vineyard is the vine dresser.
                               Ours is Abba Father...

[Mr. M]

On 10/26/2024 at 10:51 AM, Vine Abider said:

A brother loaned me a book that I just started to read called, "The Trellis and the Vine" by Marshall & Payne. The premise of the book is fascinating to me, in that it conveys that the church is typified by a vine, and vines need a trellis to support them (at least fruit-bearing vines like grapes).  The trellis typifies the supporting structures like the leadership, administrations, property maintenance, and running other supporting programs.  The authors present their opinion that the structure of the church can, and very often does, become a big distraction . . . in other words, the "trellis work" pretty much takes over.

A grape vine needs a trellis structure to keep it off the ground and give it good spacing, in order to be healthy. We can have a very fancy looking trellis or a basic one, but the main thing is that the trellis supports the vine growth effectively, and should mostly be in the background.  In fact, the appearance of the trellis means little, as the main thing is the vine and its health/proper growth to bear fruit.  And if the vine is growing well, often the trellis isn't hardly visible, as the vine foliage covers it up.

The authors talk about how in the church today, far too often a great deal of emphasis is placed on all the supporting programs, and too little on Christ and the real function of the church - making disciples (and, I would add, building up one another in love).  People get way too caught up in all the complex management of all the supporting programs and business affairs, and largely ignore the main thing - or leave it to a small group of people.  To me, that then makes that church more of a good human organization/institution, rather than a living organism in Christ.

Again, I'm just starting in this book - has anyone else read it and/or have thoughts about this?

And yet every bit is necessary, and to dismiss the effort would be contrary to God's plan. Acts teaches us how to make the Holy Spirit effectual in our lives, and failures reflect an unwillingness to bring fellowship into the home, and practice what we are taught in 1 Co.

Holding the church responsible is appropriate. Blaming the system that the Lord implemented is strange.

It is simple:

The body without the Spirit is dead, and nothing works the way it was intended.

The solution is just as simple. Invite the most dedicated saints over to your home and tarry until the Lord comes. Wait for the Spirit to come, and He will come, will manifest Christ in us and lead us into all truth.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Mr. M

[Mr. M]

On 10/26/2024 at 10:51 AM, Vine Abider said:

The premise of the book is fascinating to me, in that it conveys that the church is typified by a vine, and vines need a trellis to support them

Every believer is a branch, connected to the righteous Branch, the One True Vine,  which is Christ. Otherwise, where would that leave the individuals. Grapes? No, the church is a vineyard, an expression of "the manifold Grace and Wisdom of God"

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. 

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches....

 

[Vine Abider]

16 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

And yet every bit is necessary, and to dismiss the effort would be contrary to God's plan. Acts teaches us how to make the Holy Spirit effectual in our lives, and failures reflect an unwillingness to bring fellowship into the home, and practice what we are taught in 1 Co.

Holding the church responsible is appropriate. Blaming the system that the Lord implemented is strange.

It is simple:

The body without the Spirit is dead, and nothing works the way it is supposed to by design.

The solution is just as simple. Invite the most dedicated saints over to your home and tarry until the Lord comes. Wait for the Spirit to come, and He will come, will manifest Christ in us and lead us into all truth.

What system?  From what I see there actually is very little in the NT about the specific "how to's" concerning the ekklesia. There are some examples, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of specifics towards logistical operations and setting up support systems.

[Mr. M]

14 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

What system?  From what I see there actually is very little in the NT about the specific "how to's" concerning the ekklesia. There are some examples, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of specifics towards logistical operations and setting up support systems.

Logistical Operations and support systems respond to necessities. The NT system is to pray and ask when these situations arise. If there has been a failure of "the system", as my post is stating, is to rely fully on the Holy Spirit when these necessities arise.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.

You can add fasting to what was already mentioned. My thinking is that we cannot fix a global church, but we can fix what happens in our circle and prosper in the Lord. The Voice of the Spirit, manifested by the Anointing on the group, is the system.

Many do not practice the laying on of hands or focused prayer with fasting. Not a trellis problem.

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

If there has been a failure of "the system", as my post is stating, is to rely fully on the Holy Spirit when these necessities arise.

Hence this thread, and the exhortations in the 7 letters to the leaders of the ekklesias in Revelation.

 

Rev 2:7  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches . . . etc