Why science will not (and cannot) replace faith

[RV_Wizard]

8 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Actually, it's orthodoxy in the Western Church,

Wrong, as usual.  Augustine was the author of the Filioque, that heresy which eventually cut off the West from the Orthodox Church.  The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all facets of one God.  Augustine taught "Thus the Father loses what makes Him Father and the Son has a characteristic added to His hypostasis, making Him superior to the Father. Therefore, in Augustine’s way of thinking the Father loses what makes Him Father, and the Son has a power added to His hypostasis."

Augustine also made up the nonsense of infant baptism and the lie that baptism washes away the sins of man.  CHRIST takes away the sins of man.  Baptism declares our unity in the death and resurrection of Christ.  We are saved by grace... period.  We aren't redeemed in some make believe place called Purgatory.  We are redeemed by the Redeemer.  

The Catholic church actually forbid their followers from reading the Bible, which continued through the Middle Ages.  What better way to teach a heresy than to deny access to the Bible?

It's not surprising that you quote heretics to promote your personal distortions of the Bible.  You are, after all, the one who quoted Satan's argument to Eve that on the day they ate from the tree they would not surely die.  After all, Satan was a powerful angel, right?  You can set aside that little issue of being cast out of Heaven and damned for eternity just as easily as you set aside any Bible verses that contradict you.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Luther.... he places Augustine next to the Bible as a source of religious truth

That's Luther's problem.  The Bible is the source of religious truth.  Paul warned us not to trust the teaching of ANYONE who would add to the Scriptures or subtract from them.  Augustine was neither a prophet or a disciple.  His additions to the Bible were his own, NOT the inspired words of God. 

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

my thesis in this paper is that he has been a "saint" of the Church and has never been erased from the list of saints.

That's another title he made up for himself.  Christ told us "There are none righteous; no, not one."  There are no human saints, only sinners.  Christ is the head of the church, not some pope.  Confess your sins to God, not to some strange man.  Pray to the Father, not to intercessors.  Mary is not part of the deity and cannot hear your prayers.  Only God can hear your prayers.  Matthew23: 8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Whom should we believe, Augustine or Christ?

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Considering that they believe the Bible as written,

Those who add to the Bible or detract from it cannot, by definition, believe in the Bible as written, now can they?  Given the multiple heresies, some I have cited and many more I have not, it is not possible for your statement to be true.  You hold the teachings of men above the word of God.  For that reason we will never agree, and I will never give validation to your claims.  

[The Barbarian]

On 12/21/2024 at 6:26 AM, RV_Wizard said:

That's Luther's problem.  The Bible is the source of religious truth.  Paul warned us not to trust the teaching of ANYONE who would add to the Scriptures or subtract from them.

Luther added "sola fide", for example, which is not found in God's word.   I'm just showing you that St. Augustine is a respected theologian in all three major branches of Christianity.

On 12/21/2024 at 6:26 AM, RV_Wizard said:

The Catholic church actually forbid their followers from reading the Bible, which continued through the Middle Ages. 

That's a common superstition, and it's completely false.    In fact, in the Middle Ages, there were often Bibles readily placed in Churches so that the poor who were able to read, could read them.

In fact, the Catholic Church published an English translation of the Bible for laymen before the KJV was published.    The finished Douay Bible was completed in 1610 and the NT was completed almost a decade before that.

You've been fed a lot of falsehoods, and it's hurting your spiritual progress.    Why not just set all the programming aside, and just accept it God's way?

 

[RV_Wizard]

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That's a common superstition, and it's completely false.   

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. 

How is it I know more about the history of Catholicism than you do?

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Luther added "sola fide", for example, which is not found in God's word.

We are saved by grace, not grace plus.  There is no Purgatory.  If you don’t accept Christ in your lifetime you are damned.  If you accept Christ you are saved because He paid the price for your sins.  How you live for Christ will determine how you spend eternity.  We WILL all be judged on our service to the Lord.

[RV_Wizard]

1. Torture - Augustine liked torture, he thought it was just, and we can thank his influence for the inquisitions 1000 years later.
   
2. Animal cruelty - Augustine took the story of Legion being cast into a herd of pigs who them drown themselves, as evidence that there is 0 moral compunction towards animals.
3. The Devil - was not introduced formally in scripture until the New Testament, but mostly colloquially, and under a presumable Job-like role of being a servant to God (challenging Jesus in the desert); Augustine took this further, influenced by Manicheanism, where the dark side is equal in power, and extrapolated a much greater role for invisible enemies for the faithful to ponder in paranoia.
4. Purgatory, though there’s a passage in Mathew that is used to justify it, this doctrine mostly game from Augustine.
5. Negativity towards marriage - though this wouldn’t become formal until 650~ years after his death.
6. Lots of positive philosophical foundations, including a tradition of formal refutation and associated debate. Too bad he also helped the trend of brutally murdering people for their speech by inculcating the acceptability of torture compared to God’s purported treatment of sinners. But it’s these positive foundations that put him up with Aquinas as a Church-approved(tm) philosophical voice. And this is why people like him.  Source

Of course, others like him because his teachings support their own beliefs.

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. 

How is it I know more about the history of Catholicism than you do?

We are saved by grace, not grace plus.  There is no Purgatory.  If you don’t accept Christ in your lifetime you are damned.  If you accept Christ you are saved because He paid the price for your sins.  How you live for Christ will determine how you spend eternity.  We WILL all be judged on our service to the Lord.

That is true though it was about vernacular translations.

[RV_Wizard]

One major reason (for discouraging non-clergy from reading the Bible) was that the Church wanted to retain control over the interpretation of Scripture. Catholic doctrine relies heavily on certain interpretations of Bible passages. Church leaders were concerned that if ordinary people read the Bible, they may come to conclusions that conflicted with official Church teaching.

To avoid this, the Church attempted to limit Bible reading to the clergy and theologians who were trained in Catholic doctrine. They could guide people towards Church-approved interpretations and away from alternative readings that challenged doctrine.

The Church maintained restrictions on Bible reading for centuries. However, its stance gradually softened, especially after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical letter encouraging Catholics to read Scripture for spiritual growth. The Church still prefers Bible reading under its guidance but it no longer condemns private study.  source

[The Barbarian]

On 12/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, RV_Wizard said:

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books,

That's another slander of Christians by non-Christians; an obvious falsehood:

The Tridentine Index of 1564 presented ten rules that were established by the Council of Trent to control the censorship of texts. In the Index librorum prohibitorum that accompanies the Council’s decrees, the ten rules were reprinted in full. These are summarized in English below:

1. All books condemned by popes or councils before 1515 will remain prohibited.
2. All books by “heresiarchs” (heretical leaders) and theological books by heretics are prohibited.
3. Heretics’ Bible translations are banned; heretics’ translations of other texts require approval.
4. Vernacular translations of the Bible by Catholic scholars require approval.
5. Compilations of earlier works edited by heretics require correction and approval.
6. Theological writings in vernacular languages require correction and approval.
7. Obscene or immoral works are prohibited; Classical works may be read by adults.
8. Books that are generally sound, but which contain isolated heresies must be corrected.
9. All books treating magic, superstition, astrology, or occult practices are prohibited.
10. The bishop and the inquisitor require all books to be licensed prior to publication.

I'm  surprised that someone who claims to be Christian would repeat that lie.  As you learned earlier, the Church encouraged reading of the Bible, and published the Douay translation to make it easier for English-speaking Christians to read the  Bible.

Don't repeat lies by non-Christians against Christians.

Edited December 24, 2024 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

On 12/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, RV_Wizard said:

We are saved by grace, not grace plus.

KJV, James 2:Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I believe God.    You should, too.

[The Barbarian]

On 12/23/2024 at 7:18 AM, RV_Wizard said:

How you live for Christ will determine how you spend eternity.

Jesus says that how you cared for others will determine whether you spend eternity with Him or with the devil and his angels.    Act accordingly.

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

To avoid this, the Church attempted to limit Bible reading to the clergy and theologians who were trained in Catholic doctrine.

As you learned, this is a lie.   During the Middle Ages, there were Bibles kept in churches so that those who could not afford one could read them.    And in line with the recommendations of the Council of Trent, the Church encouraged translations into vernacular languages to allow laymen to read them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent

History shows your source is faulty (perhaps out of ignorance rather than actual malice against Christians)

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by The Barbarian