When do you think an individual's life begins?

[Luther]

14 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Heb 4:12 proves that the soul and spirit are two separate things.  It is the human spirit that must be born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or made alive.

None of these verses (or any other) say that the soul is made new.  Only the dead human spirit is born AGAIN, or RE-generated or made alive.

The soul is the intellect, personality and emotions that complete the body.  The human spirit is for worshiping God, as Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4:24 -  God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

When Adam and the woman sinned, their human spirit died "on the day" they ate the fruit.  The literal Hebrew says "on the day you eat of it, DYING, you shall DIE".

The "dying" refers to the aging process that leads to physical death.  So Adam's death at 930 years was after eating the forbidden fruit, not his creation.

What died on the day they ate the fruit was their human spirit.

When God said, "Let US make man after OUR own image" that was referring to the Trinity itself.  So God made man with a body, soul and spirit, which is specifically mentioned in 1 Thess 5:23.

All humans are born physically alive and spiritually dead.  So everyone needs to be born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or made alive, which occurs the moment one believes in Christ's finished work on the cross for them.

So do you believe that the soul remains the same after salvation? Is that what you believe?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

So do you believe that the soul remains the same after salvation? Is that what you believe?

Yes.  It is the human spirit that is RE-generated or born AGAIN.  Why do you believe the soul is changed.  The verses you quoted don't say that.

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[Luther]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes.  It is the human spirit that is RE-generated or born AGAIN.  Why do you believe the soul is changed.  The verses you quoted don't say that.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is simply this: When we become saved, our inward parts, our " heart, mind and soul" are definitely changed, where we desire to do the will of God. Which comes through the Spirit of God. The idea being that the Spirit ( or spirit) drives the soul, our inward essence.

Edited December 7, 2024 by Luther
Needed to add to it

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

I think the point I'm trying to make is simply this: When we become saved, our inward parts, our " heart, mind and soul" are definitely changed, where we desire to do the will of God.

Scripture uses "heart/mind" synonymously.  As the consciousness/conscience, emotions, and desires.  As Heb 4:12 shows, the soul and spirit are separated.

3 hours ago, Luther said:

Which comes through the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer when they believe.  Eph 1:13 describes it in Eph 1:13 - in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,—in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

However, Eph 5:18 commands believers to be "filled with the Holy Spirit", so this isn't automatic nor guaranteed, like the indwelling is.

Paul contrasts/compares being filled with the Spirit with being "drunk with wine".  iow, rather than being influenced by alcohol, believers are commanded to be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

The question is:  how is the believer filled with the Spirit, since it is commanded.  How do we obey the command to be filled with the Spirit.  In Acts, when believers were filled with the Spirit, they did bold things, miraculous things, things of service to God.

3 hours ago, Luther said:

The idea being that the Spirit ( or spirit) drives the soul, our inward essence.

This is what being "filled with the Spirit" is about.  Influence.  How to be influenced by the Spirit.  

What He never does is just take over and drive the soul.  That would border on puppetry, which the Bible doesn't teach.

When I was young, I heard a pastor explain how to be filled with the Holy Spirit.  He said to "submit" or "yield".

In principle, he was right.  But these words are too vague to pin down with clear understanding.

So, what are your thoughts on how to be filled with the Spirit?

[Luther]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Scripture uses "heart/mind" synonymously.  As the consciousness/conscience, emotions, and desires.  As Heb 4:12 shows, the soul and spirit are separated.

The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer when they believe.  Eph 1:13 describes it in Eph 1:13 - in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,—in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

However, Eph 5:18 commands believers to be "filled with the Holy Spirit", so this isn't automatic nor guaranteed, like the indwelling is.

Paul contrasts/compares being filled with the Spirit with being "drunk with wine".  iow, rather than being influenced by alcohol, believers are commanded to be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

The question is:  how is the believer filled with the Spirit, since it is commanded.  How do we obey the command to be filled with the Spirit.  In Acts, when believers were filled with the Spirit, they did bold things, miraculous things, things of service to God.

This is what being "filled with the Spirit" is about.  Influence.  How to be influenced by the Spirit.  

What He never does is just take over and drive the soul.  That would border on puppetry, which the Bible doesn't teach.

When I was young, I heard a pastor explain how to be filled with the Holy Spirit.  He said to "submit" or "yield".

In principle, he was right.  But these words are too vague to pin down with clear understanding.

So, what are your thoughts on how to be filled with the Spirit?

( All by God's grace) From what I've understood at this point the Holy Spirit never leaves us. We can grieve the Holy Spirit, as we all can do, but having been made a new creation in Christ  (2 Cor.5:17), and having the mind of Christ ( 1 Cor.2:16) and having a " new heart" ( Ez. 36:26), our  desire is to do the will of God. 

Romans 8:26-27

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[27]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Q:" How to" be filled with the Holy Spirit?

Because God will never leave us nor forsake us He will strengthen us and because we have the mind or understanding of Christ, we know that we must PRAY for His Spirit to kill our fleshly desires. That's our whole problem while on earth. 

Romans 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify  (put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

A: God gives us the power or ability to pray for the fullness of the Spirit.

( In another post I have a few thoughts on the "soul" I wanted to bring up)

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

( All by God's grace) From what I've understood at this point the Holy Spirit never leaves us. We can grieve the Holy Spirit, as we all can do, but having been made a new creation in Christ  (2 Cor.5:17), and having the mind of Christ ( 1 Cor.2:16) and having a " new heart" ( Ez. 36:26), our  desire is to do the will of God.

No, read what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-17

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

v.19 - For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

v.21 - So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

So, our new nature (the born again one) wants to do good, but the human nature is still there and wants to do bad.  So there is a struggle.  

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.

3 hours ago, Luther said:

Q:" How to" be filled with the Holy Spirit?

Because God will never leave us nor forsake us He will strengthen us and because we have the mind or understanding of Christ, we know that we must PRAY for His Spirit to kill our fleshly desires. That's our whole problem while on earth.

Right.  But we have to be on "praying grounds", or Psa 66:18 is at work.  If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

3 hours ago, Luther said:

Romans 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify  (put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

A: God gives us the power or ability to pray for the fullness of the Spirit.

Yes.  Since Eph 5:18 is in the imperative mood (a command) it is obvious that being filled with the Spirit is God's will for us.

1 John 5:14,15 tells us to pray for God's will.  Bingo.

[Luther]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

No, read what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-17

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

v.19 - For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

v.21 - So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

So, our new nature (the born again one) wants to do good, but the human nature is still there and wants to do bad.  So there is a struggle.  

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.

Right.  But we have to be on "praying grounds", or Psa 66:18 is at work.  If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Yes.  Since Eph 5:18 is in the imperative mood (a command) it is obvious that being filled with the Spirit is God's will for us.

1 John 5:14,15 tells us to pray for God's will.  Bingo.

"No, read what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-17"

But look what Paul wrote ( under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) in v.22:

Romans 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Our desire is to do the will of God. How would we be any different than the unsaved? It's the INWARD MAN which is that new " creation in Christ". It must be the soul ( inward man, heart, mind, soul) that God makes new. Along with a new spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

[FreeGrace]

19 minutes ago, Luther said:

"No, read what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-17"

But look what Paul wrote ( under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) in v.22:

Romans 7:22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Our desire is to do the will of God. How would we be any different than the unsaved? It's the INWARD MAN which is that new " creation in Christ". It must be the soul ( inward man, heart, mind, soul) that God makes new. Along with a new spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

Do you think v.22 negates EVERYTHING else he wrote in ch 7?  Yes, our regenerated human spirit desires to do good, but it's easily thwarted by our human nature, from the soul.  

So there is no guarantee that any believer will do good.  In fact, the Bible commands believers to be holy and walk worthy for just that fact.  It isn't automatic.

There are many believers who have been falsely taught that because the Holy Spirit is in them, they don't sin any more.  

[Luther]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you think v.22 negates EVERYTHING else he wrote in ch 7?  Yes, our regenerated human spirit desires to do good, but it's easily thwarted by our human nature, from the soul.  

So there is no guarantee that any believer will do good.  In fact, the Bible commands believers to be holy and walk worthy for just that fact.  It isn't automatic.

There are many believers who have been falsely taught that because the Holy Spirit is in them, they don't sin any more.  

The difference now is that we should be repulsed by sin. We know it displeases God and we will be distanced from Him.

Psalms 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If they don't believe they sin anymore, then when they do sin do they recognize it as such? That's a scary place to be. 

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, Luther said:

The difference now is that we should be repulsed by sin.

Of course we should.  And that's the point:  we SHOULD.  Not we "will be".  Again, there are no guarantees.

32 minutes ago, Luther said:

We know it displeases God and we will be distanced from Him.

Psalms 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

If they don't believe they sin anymore, then when they do sin do they recognize it as such? That's a scary place to be. 

I have no idea what is in their head.  And showing them the verses that refute them directly seems to have no effect on them.  Yes, scary.