wordsower Posted December 9, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Such sarcasm Pilgrim7. No point in anyone trying to discuss anything with you until you work on that root of biterness. There is no way you could understand the rest of God if I typed all week, so.....not gonna try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Let me get this straight. I show my faith by ignoring God's Commandments. Nope, you don't have it straight. No one said that. All those in the 'Old Covenant' were lost by breaking God's Commandments. No one said that either. Now in the 'New Covenant' they are saved in breaking God's Commandments because all of a sudden the God who never changes doesn't care if we keep them. Your still batting zero. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. This was written concerning the nation of Israel. The context of the entire chapter from v1 to the end cannot be talking about anyone else. Lets break it down: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah This a reference to a specific people. It is not a reference to Gentile Christianity. God is referencing specifically the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah. God renewing His covenant with THEM. Every promise that follows must be understood as relating to the nation of Israel and God's future plans for them. The surrounding context demands that we understand the text as referring to them, specifically. Only in a very limited sense, can this be used to apply to Gentiles. This is not a "new" covenant in the absolute sense. The term used in Hebrew for "new covenant" as expressed by Jeremiah is "brit chadashah." It means "renewed covenant." Dashah carries the image of refreshing or renewal. The best word picture for dashah is the re-sharpening of the dull blade of a sword. The "New Covenant" is the same as before, made with the same people as before, but this covenant is an improved version. That is what Hebrews is getting across to us. The book of Hebrews is a comparison between the inferiority of the Old Covenant and the superiority of the Renewed Covenant. It is shows that the Renewed version is superior because it has superior blood, a superior sacrifice, and a superior Priesthood. The Torah was therefore modified (changed) in order to account for the coming of the Messiah and the superiority of His new system after order of Melchi-Tzedek. It makes the older system obsolete. It does not do away with the need for a priesthood, or sacrifice. Rather it provides a new and better sacrificial system based upon the finished work of the Messiah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Again, this is a reference to Israel as this verse demands us to understand. God did not make a covenant with anyone else, or bring anyone else out of Egypt. But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. This has not happened yet. This is still to come. The Jewish people will one day be fully restored spiritually to God, and this is part of that restoration. God is not done with Israel, and has a future for this nation as the Scriptures repeatedly attest. This is not a reference to Christians or New Testament believers but a reference to national Israel. Many want to apply it to themselves in the current age, but that is not appropriate and the text does not allow for such an interpretation. We have seen only part of this covenant fulfillment. The covenant has been cut, but we are still awaiting the final, full consummation of it. It is still in the process of fulfillment. Part of that fulfillment will be the restoration of Israel. If you are going to use a passage at least try to exegete it properly before using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 9, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,263 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,991 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2005 BTW, Wordsower is a sister.... Oh, rats, I did it again. I wish we could put our genders on the list of things on our posts. It's hard to keep up with it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim7 Posted December 10, 2005 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 635 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2005 Shiloh, Are the works of faith, righteousness and obedeince, 'optional' for the believer? God Bless, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) Shiloh, Are the works of faith, righteousness and obedeince, 'optional' for the believer? God Bless, Dennis You have already asked this elsewhere. "Works of faith, righteousness and obedience" are the same thing. They are the "good works" that we were created to perform as stated clearly in Eph 2:10. They are the works that James tells us demonstrate the authenticity of our profession of faith in Christ. We do not procure eternal life, by them; they demonstrate the character and operations of the Lord at work within us. They are not optional since we were created to perform them. We are commaned to practice righteousness, and to live worthy of the Lord. We do not do them to be saved, but to please the Lord. What you are trying to say, is that the Sabbath is not optional. I would ask if you believe that the Sabbath is mandatory for the NT believer, and if so, what is the eternal outcome of a person who is a Christian in this life, but dies without ever having kept the Sabbath? What will happen to such a person in eternity, according to your theology? Edited December 10, 2005 by shiloh357 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK202002 Posted December 10, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2005 wanna hear some thing neat? these dates are approxomate In the beginning-Adam and Eve 2000 years later Abram 2000 years later Jesus 2000 years later Jesus comes again. (we know he's coming soon, but not for this thread to discuss) 1000 years later millenial reign is over. God worked for 6 days, and on the 7th He rested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim7 Posted December 11, 2005 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 635 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2005 Amen Shiloh, So if we don't perform them, according to you, there would be a problem with the faith. It seems like it would not be saving faith. So then the works demonstrate saving faith. So then faith and works are actually connected and cannot be separated, which James seems to be telling us. Now the next question. Do these works automatically flow from the Believer and he has no choice but to do them? Is he now a robot that can't but help do these works. Does the fact that he has faith guarantee that he will do these works. Can he choose or decide to not do these works or did his re-creation unto good works guarantee that he will do these good works. Is he now pre-destined to do these works of faith. You see that Adam and Eve were created perfect, unto good works. Yet they chose to sin and look at the mess we have today. All they had to do was stay away from one tree. They had plenty to eat. Why didn't their creation unto good works guarantee their performance of good works? It seems that the 'Serpent' beguiled them. Is that not possible with the 'born again' christian? If not, why doesn't the devil just pack it in and leave believers alone? Why would believers need to be 'rebuked, reproved and exhorted' if they were guaranteed to perform these works? Why the need to 'wrestle against the devil', against the flesh if it is already predestined? Just trying to understand where your coming from. God Bless, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Amen Shiloh, So if we don't perform them, according to you, there would be a problem with the faith. It seems like it would not be saving faith. So then the works demonstrate saving faith. So then faith and works are actually connected and cannot be separated, which James seems to be telling us. Now the next question. Do these works automatically flow from the Believer and he has no choice but to do them? Is he now a robot that can't but help do these works. Does the fact that he has faith guarantee that he will do these works. Can he choose or decide to not do these works or did his re-creation unto good works guarantee that he will do these good works. Is he now pre-destined to do these works of faith. You see that Adam and Eve were created perfect, unto good works. Yet they chose to sin and look at the mess we have today. All they had to do was stay away from one tree. They had plenty to eat. Why didn't their creation unto good works guarantee their performance of good works? It seems that the 'Serpent' beguiled them. Is that not possible with the 'born again' christian? If not, why doesn't the devil just pack it in and leave believers alone? Why would believers need to be 'rebuked, reproved and exhorted' if they were guaranteed to perform these works? Why the need to 'wrestle against the devil', against the flesh if it is already predestined? Just trying to understand where your coming from. God Bless, Dennis So where you stand, if a person doesn't keep the Sabbath, then that is evidence that they were not saved by faith, right? If a person doesn't keep the Sabbath you are saying that there is a problem with their faith. Here is where I am coming from.... Are you saying that a Christian that does not keep the Sabbath is not truly saved? You see that Adam and Eve were created perfect, unto good works. Yet they chose to sin and look at the mess we have today. All they had to do was stay away from one tree. They had plenty to eat. Why didn't their creation unto good works guarantee their performance of good works? It seems that the 'Serpent' beguiled them. Is that not possible with the 'born again' christian? If not, why doesn't the devil just pack it in and leave believers alone? Why would believers need to be 'rebuked, reproved and exhorted' if they were guaranteed to perform these works? Why the need to 'wrestle against the devil', against the flesh if it is already predestined? Who said anything about good works being guaranteed? There is a difference between saying that good works are not optional, since we are commanded to do them, and saying that a believer is "guaranteed" to do good works. I think you are missing the point. Obviously, a Christian can choose to disobey. We do it all the time. Everyone of us sins, believer or not. That does not change the fact that good works are not left to us as "optional." Also, where does the whole "predestined" thing come into this? Who said anything about predestination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted December 11, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,076 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2005 I would like to apologize to everyone for my lack of response. I have recently sold my house and we are busy looking for a new one, plus my work load is intense right now. I will try to catch up when I have some time. Peace all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusisGod2 Posted December 11, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,065 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/29/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1958 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Romans 4:4-6 (King James Version) 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Now the next question. Do these works automatically flow from the Believer and he has no choice but to do them? Is he now a robot that can't but help do these works. Does the fact that he has faith guarantee that he will do these works. Can he choose or decide to not do these works or did his re-creation unto good works guarantee that he will do these good works. Works do not automatically flow from the believer and it is a good thing that it is not by these works that we are justified before God or we would all be in trouble. Faith however does automatically flow from the believer (not to say that it does not increase as we learn to trust and get to know God), this is the gift from God that allows us to believe in Him and approach Him for salvation and justification through the finished work of Christ. It is this faith that pleases God, and it is this faith that was given to us by God that we exercise in our pursuit of Him. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. This faith and pursuit of Him is what produces good works, works that are wrought in God that were prepared for us from the begginnig of creation. Now what are good works? Everyone I am sure has a different opinion of what they entail. Here is what Jesus told some to report back to John to show that He was indeed the Messiah: Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. Are we preaching the gospel the poor or are we just feeding them? Now feeding them is all good, but if they arent hearing the gospel, they are going to hell on a full stomach. Are we opening the eyes of the blind? many are spiritually blind and we can be a part of this presenting the gospel of our Lord and He will open, this along with cleansing them of the leporacy of sin, the lame to walk freely in the Lord, the deaf to hear what the Lord is saying to them through the gospel. Our greatest work is to introduce someone who is lost to the Lord Jesus and let Him perform the miracle of raising the dead by forgiving them their treaspasses against God, and giving them life in this world and the next. We do this by faith, and it is by this faith that God considers it to us as righteousness and by which we see the rigteousness of God. Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. It is by this faith that is God origionated by which we are justified before Him, not by any particular deed, or good work but by faith in Him. We are not to seek good works but we are to seek God and in our pursuit of Him we cant help but produce good works, but good works that are origionated in Him. It is by these works that people will reconize us as children of the Living God and bring glory to the Father. Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Luke 8:15-17 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. We are to let our light shine so that others may see and glorify God. These are the good works that the scriptures speak of. Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. The laws that were written our hearts were not a set of rules by which we seek justification for it is written all over that we are not justified by them but by faith: Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. but the fulfillment of these written laws is love: Romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. in otherwords as we grow in Christ we become love, for we become like Him and He is love: 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love Him, because He first loved us. This is the fulfillment of the law, to become like Him. In Jesus kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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