Biblical Exegesis

[AnOrangeCat]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Verse eight cannot be an analogy for Hell; it is the fruits of our labor for the kingdom of God, a cleansing. Akin to the earth to be cleansed by fire. It is not "he" that which beareth thorns and briers, but that which beareth is rejected.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Has anyone else had difficulty trying to divide the truth of Hebrews rightly, or am I the exception? How do you understand these scriptures?

I can definitely see your case here. I'm largely in agreement regarding context. It's very much full of references to the OT and references to Jewish practices, but also strikingly about Christ, especially in relation to the old covenant. I believe the surrounding chapters and verses are also important to context, however. In chapters 3 and 4 we see references to God's "rest", which is used to point back to the ancient Israelites wandering in the wilderness and in reference to the Sabbath. Those ancient Israelites never entered the promised land.

I see shades of the way Jesus concluded a parable in that: To whom much is given much is expected, and to whom little is given little is expected. Going through Exodus we see some amazing demonstrates of God's power through the ten plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, and the various ways He provided for them. Yet as we know they constantly complained and went so far as to build an idol. Just like the text says their hearts were always going astray despite the vastness of the miracles they'd witnessed. It's very much presented as something to avoid.

I personally feel like we see another callback to those ancient Israelites in Hebrews 6:4-8. They were certainly people who had tasted the power of God and experienced His goodness in blatantly miraculous ways, yet their hearts were never really truly set on Him. They kept going astray. To my eyes that very much seems to be the sort of person referenced in 6:4-8.

I find that there's still more to dig into and unpack here, first of all how we should interpret the notion of entering God's rest. Should it be taken as a picture of Heaven? Should it not? is all of that a thought that was already concluded and has no bearing on 6:4-8?

Going further into it verses 7-8 basically express the same idea as verses 4-6. It's a notion of a spiritual truth compared to an earthly example to drive home the meaning. But I also see a potential reference to Jesus cursing the fig tree. A common interpretation of that is that it was symbolic of a judgment of Israel at the time. God's own Son walked among them and despite the miracles presented they rejected Him. Definitely another case of the land being watered yet failing to produce. But we know God wasn't and isn't finished with Israel, so despite the terminology and symbolism used it wasn't the end for them.

This is all strictly my opinion anyway. It's entirely possible my brain is making connections where there aren't any. But hopefully it's a bit of food for thought.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I can definitely see your case here. I'm largely in agreement regarding context. It's very much full of references to the OT and references to Jewish practices, but also strikingly about Christ, especially in relation to the old covenant. I believe the surrounding chapters and verses are also important to context, however. In chapters 3 and 4 we see references to God's "rest", which is used to point back to the ancient Israelites wandering in the wilderness and in reference to the Sabbath. Those ancient Israelites never entered the promised land.

I see shades of the way Jesus concluded a parable in that: To whom much is given much is expected, and to whom little is given little is expected. Going through Exodus we see some amazing demonstrates of God's power through the ten plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, and the various ways He provided for them. Yet as we know they constantly complained and went so far as to build an idol. Just like the text says their hearts were always going astray despite the vastness of the miracles they'd witnessed. It's very much presented as something to avoid.

I personally feel like we see another callback to those ancient Israelites in Hebrews 6:4-8. They were certainly people who had tasted the power of God and experienced His goodness in blatantly miraculous ways, yet their hearts were never really truly set on Him. They kept going astray. To my eyes that very much seems to be the sort of person referenced in 6:4-8.

I find that there's still more to dig into and unpack here, first of all how we should interpret the notion of entering God's rest. Should it be taken as a picture of Heaven? Should it not? is all of that a thought that was already concluded and has no bearing on 6:4-8?

Going further into it verses 7-8 basically express the same idea as verses 4-6. It's a notion of a spiritual truth compared to an earthly example to drive home the meaning. But I also see a potential reference to Jesus cursing the fig tree. A common interpretation of that is that it was symbolic of a judgment of Israel at the time. God's own Son walked among them and despite the miracles presented they rejected Him. Definitely another case of the land being watered yet failing to produce. But we know God wasn't and isn't finished with Israel, so despite the terminology and symbolism used it wasn't the end for them.

This is all strictly my opinion anyway. It's entirely possible my brain is making connections where there aren't any. But hopefully it's a bit of food for thought.

Good morning,

It is hard for me to convey tone and intent in writing. My intent was not to make a case or an argument or teach to convince anyone of anything. My intent was to glean some additional thoughts and directions for study, as you provided. Thank you.

I have many commentaries on these verses and subjects, all diverse one from another. I have devoted a great deal of time studying this. Unfortunately, I cannot call, write, or email these theologians and scholars to ask questions or clarify, explain, and expound on anything. But I can gather and ask questions from people more intelligent than me on this forum.

However, one wants to coin the term, I was backslidden, fallen away, out of the will of God, apostatized for decades. No, I never rejected God and His grace but chose to be disobedient, live and act carnally, as the world does, and fit in.

Hebrews chapter six haunted me. What if I had died in those decades unrepentant, enjoying my sins?  

To briefly summarize what I have come to think, Hebrews 6:4-8 seems to go against the grain of what the rest of the Bible teaches, depending on how one interprets it. The Book of Hebrews is just that, written by a Hebrew, to the Hebrews, and for the Hebrews, not Gentiles necessarily. True, there are other lessons to be learned from these passages. I glean these are saved Christians, albeit Messianic Hebrews, most likely with the potential to revert to Judaism and animal sacrifice. Putting Jesus’s one-time sacrifice once and for all puts Him to open shame, reverting to the Law, rejecting the new covenant they should have been looking for and expecting.

[AnOrangeCat]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It is hard for me to convey tone and intent in writing. My intent was not to make a case or an argument or teach to convince anyone of anything. My intent was to glean some additional thoughts and directions for study, as you provided. Thank you.

Thank you for the thread, too. I really do appreciate this sort of discussion. I tried to keep a similar approach and focus on the information and thought processes, but it can be hard to keep opinions from shining through sometimes.

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

However, one wants to coin the term, I was backslidden, fallen away, out of the will of God, apostatized for decades. No, I never rejected God and His grace but chose to be disobedient, live and act carnally, as the world does, and fit in.

Hebrews chapter six haunted me. What if I had died in those decades unrepentant, enjoying my sins?  

I've went through a similar process twice in my life. During my teenage years and 20s I was, at least to my own eyes, the very picture of lukewarm. The second time was when my grandmother came down with dementia. She had professed Christ much of her life and while she was far from perfect (who is?) her heart seemed to be in the right place. She became very hateful and abusive after dementia. I did and still do wonder whether or not that had any impact on her eternal fate. I've since come to believe that God, in His mercy, doesn't look as strongly at things done in a state of being mentally compromised. But yeah, haunted is a good word for where that put me as well.

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I glean these are saved Christians, albeit Messianic Hebrews, most likely with the potential to revert to Judaism and animal sacrifice. Putting Jesus’s one-time sacrifice once and for all puts Him to open shame, reverting to the Law, rejecting the new covenant they should have been looking for and expecting.

This really does seem to get to the heart of Hebrews. I skimmed all the way from the start of Hebrews to the end of chapter 6 as a refresher before responding and one of the things that stood out was Paul noting that they should be teachers given the amount of time they've had, but instead they were still on the basics. To my understanding that also seemed to be because they were starting to regress rather than moving forward in understanding and faith.