Selective Rapture

[Feedmysheep]

There will be more than one taking up of the saints of God from off the earth. The first is the rapture of a minority remnant who are found by the Lord watching, abiding, and vigilantly living habitually in the Spirit.  But the majority of Christians will be caught off guard and miss this pre-tribulation rapture. This early pre-tribulation rapture requires building up a habit of habitual abiding in the Spirit in a moment by moment way.

Then that majority will have to pass through the three and one half years of the great tribulation to be taken up by the Lord at its end. At least there are these two major parts of the complete rapture of all the universal church. 

Sometimes this has been referred to as Selective Rapture. I am convinced of its more realistic accuracy than either schools of thought which hold the entire church is rapture either pre-tribulation or end-tribulation.

Anyone wish to examine its veracity? Ask specifically so that each post may not be too lengthy.

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Feedmysheep
missing word

[Feedmysheep]

Perhaps to put a little more clarity to this subject I'll dispense of a few assumptions that some may hold as an initial  reaction.

1.)  I am not saying Christian can be so assured that they will be raptured pre-tribulation. Otherwise there would not be the warning to watch.

2.) I am not saying failure to be rapture pre-tribulation is evidence of not having been justified by faith for eternal life.

3.) I am not saying the requirement for eternal redemption is exactly the requirement for early rapture. 

4.) It should be obvious that I am not saying only unbelievers will be left to pass through the great tribulation.

5.) It should be evident that I am saying all believers are  not raptured at the same time, though all inevitably are raptured.  

[BornAgain490]

Pretrib rapture is unbiblical.

All saints, dead and alive, from every generation, after the great worldwide intense persecution of all that are in Christ (the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24), at the last trump, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. 

[Dennis1209]

38 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Pretrib rapture is unbiblical.

All saints, dead and alive, from every generation, after the great worldwide intense persecution of all that are in Christ (the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24), at the last trump, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. 

So many, including myself, disagree.

52. a moment. Ex 33:5. Nu 16:21, 45. Ps 73:19. 2 P *3:10. at the last trump. Mt ◐✓24:31. 1 Th ✓4:16. Re x11:15. This “last trump” must not be equated with the seventh trumpet of Re 11:15, nor is “last” to be understood absolutely, for the trumpet of Mt 24:31 is clearly after the tribulation (Mt 24:29) and coming of Christ. J. Finis Dake (Annotated Reference Bible, p. 189 of the N.T., col. 4, note q) suggests the “last trump” in this text is the last of two trumps at the pretribulation rapture: at the first trump, the dead in Christ will be raised to immortality (1 Th 4:16); at the second or last trump the living believers will be changed to immortality and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Co 15:52. 1 Th 4:17). This rapture cannot be mid or post tribulational, for then the warnings to watch, be ready, and not be caught off guard (Lk +✓21:36. Ti 2:13, 14. He 9:28) would be pointless, for when the tribulation begins, those who know the Bible will be aware of the fact and be able to ascertain the precise time of the Second Advent by referring to Daniel’s prophecy (Da +*9:27). the trumpet. Le +=23:24. Nu 10:1-10. shall sound. Ex 19:16. 20:18. Nu 10:4. Is 18:3. 27:13. Ezk 33:3, 6. Zc 9:14. Re 8:2, 13. 9:13, 14. for. Mt 24:31. Jn 5:25. 1 Th *4:16. the dead. See on ver. 23, +*42, 50. Lk 20:36. Jn *5:25, 28, 29.

Jerome H. Smith, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: The Most Complete Listing of Cross References Available Anywhere- Every Verse, Every Theme, Every Important Word (Nashville TN: Thomas Nelson, 1992), 1349.

15:51–52. Paul had revealed the same truth to the Thessalonians (1 Thes. 4:15–17). The Rapture of the church was a mystery (mystērion) in that it had not been known in the Old Testament but now was revealed. (Cf. other “mysteries”—now revealed truths—in Matt. 13:11; Luke 8:10; Rom. 11:25; 16:25; 1 Cor. 4:1; Eph. 1:9; 3:3–4, 9; 5:32; Col. 1:26–27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thes. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9, 16; Rev. 1:20; 10:7; 17:5.) The dead in Christ will first be raised, and then the living will be instantaneously transformed. The trumpet, as in the Old Testament, signaled the appearance of God (cf. Ex. 19:16). It is the last blast for the church because this appearance shall never end (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12). (There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15–19. The trumpets in Rev. pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is related to the church.)

David K. Lowery, “1 Corinthians,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, vol. 2 (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 545–546.

[missmuffet]

48 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Pretrib rapture is unbiblical.

All saints, dead and alive, from every generation, after the great worldwide intense persecution of all that are in Christ (the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24), at the last trump, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. 

That is your opinion. That is not what the Bible tells me. But time will tell.

[BornAgain490]

10 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

That is your opinion. That is not what the Bible tells me. But time will tell.

Not my opinion, but the word of God. 

If you study the word alone, you'll likely come to the same conclusion.  Unless, of course, you've been completely indoctrinated into pretrib theology that you're mind is fixed on that which you've been told by pretrib preachers. 

Again I'll ask: cite just one passage of scripture that explicitly tells of a pretrib rapture.  

[Feedmysheep]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

Pretrib rapture is unbiblical.

All saints, dead and alive, from every generation, after the great worldwide intense persecution of all that are in Christ (the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24), at the last trump, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. 

Greetings BornAgain490.

This is a view that the entire church is raptured at one time  indicated by two places (Rev. 14:14-16) and (1 Thess. 4:16,17).

Revelation 14:15 says that this is a reaping of the HARVEST. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

But before the HARVEST is ripened the FIRSTFRUITS are ripened. And the FIRSTFRUITS which matured and ripened earlier are seen already standing in Heaven with Christ in the same chapter in verses 1-6.

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. (v.1) These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (v.14b)

Because the time of ripening and rapture of these two groups is not the same, one is called FIRSTFRUITS being FIRST to ripen. And the other is called HARVEST being the latter ones to ripen.

Between the FIRSTFRUITS rapture and the HARVEST rapture are exactly the main events of the great tribulation.

1.) Firstfruits seen raptured to Heaven (vs. 1-5)

2.) Preaching of the eternal gospel by an angel to all the earth (vs. 6-7)

3.) The fall of religious Babylon as Antichrist opposes all religions (v.8)

4.) Warning not to worship Antichrist or receive his mark (vs.9-12)

5.) Blessing on martyred saints who resist Antichrist (v.13)

6.) Rapture of the Harvest to the air at the end of the GT (vs.14-16)

7.) Gathering of the Grapes of Wrath for the battle at Armaggeddon. (vs. 17-20)

You should be able to see that a pre-great tribulation rapture of a minority Firstfruits is followed by the events of the great tribulation proper and concluded with a reaping of the remaining Harvest of God's crop.

So selection has taken place. 

First Thessalonians 4:16,17 mentions "the trumpet of God"  and rapture of the Harvest, the greater majority.

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord.

However under inspiration Paul includes these words "we who are living, who are left remaining" will be raptured at that time.

If some were living and were raptured before this trumpet of God (ie. the last trumpet) then those who were not taken but are left on earth through the great tribulation would be "we who are living, who are left remaining." 

Those raptured as FIRST living and ripened of God's crop would be those living and rapture early. The others would be left to ripen and be taken at the end of the great tribulation as "we who are living, who are left remaining." 

If the Apostle Paul had merely meant all Christians who have not died in previous ages it would have been adaquate for him to write "we who are living."  Interestingly, under inspiration he added the phrase "who are left remaining". 

I believe the meaning is that some will be living and taken early. But the majority will be living and LEFT REMAINING to be raptured at the last trumpet, the seventh trumpet at the end of the great tribulation. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[BornAgain490]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

So many, including myself, disagree.

52. a moment. Ex 33:5. Nu 16:21, 45. Ps 73:19. 2 P *3:10. at the last trump. Mt ◐✓24:31. 1 Th ✓4:16. Re x11:15. This “last trump” must not be equated with the seventh trumpet of Re 11:15, nor is “last” to be understood absolutely, for the trumpet of Mt 24:31 is clearly after the tribulation (Mt 24:29) and coming of Christ. J. Finis Dake (Annotated Reference Bible, p. 189 of the N.T., col. 4, note q) suggests the “last trump” in this text is the last of two trumps at the pretribulation rapture: at the first trump, the dead in Christ will be raised to immortality (1 Th 4:16); at the second or last trump the living believers will be changed to immortality and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Co 15:52. 1 Th 4:17). This rapture cannot be mid or post tribulational, for then the warnings to watch, be ready, and not be caught off guard (Lk +✓21:36. Ti 2:13, 14. He 9:28) would be pointless, for when the tribulation begins, those who know the Bible will be aware of the fact and be able to ascertain the precise time of the Second Advent by referring to Daniel’s prophecy (Da +*9:27). the trumpet. Le +=23:24. Nu 10:1-10. shall sound. Ex 19:16. 20:18. Nu 10:4. Is 18:3. 27:13. Ezk 33:3, 6. Zc 9:14. Re 8:2, 13. 9:13, 14. for. Mt 24:31. Jn 5:25. 1 Th *4:16. the dead. See on ver. 23, +*42, 50. Lk 20:36. Jn *5:25, 28, 29.

Jerome H. Smith, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: The Most Complete Listing of Cross References Available Anywhere- Every Verse, Every Theme, Every Important Word (Nashville TN: Thomas Nelson, 1992), 1349.

15:51–52. Paul had revealed the same truth to the Thessalonians (1 Thes. 4:15–17). The Rapture of the church was a mystery (mystērion) in that it had not been known in the Old Testament but now was revealed. (Cf. other “mysteries”—now revealed truths—in Matt. 13:11; Luke 8:10; Rom. 11:25; 16:25; 1 Cor. 4:1; Eph. 1:9; 3:3–4, 9; 5:32; Col. 1:26–27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thes. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9, 16; Rev. 1:20; 10:7; 17:5.) The dead in Christ will first be raised, and then the living will be instantaneously transformed. The trumpet, as in the Old Testament, signaled the appearance of God (cf. Ex. 19:16). It is the last blast for the church because this appearance shall never end (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12). (There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15–19. The trumpets in Rev. pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is related to the church.)

David K. Lowery, “1 Corinthians,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, vol. 2 (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 545–546.

You've reply proves one thing: dispensational pretrib theology twists scripture and imposes itself onto scripture to make scripture say what dispensational pretrib theology teaches. 

God's word in Matthew 24 is clear: "after the tribulation of those days..."

Paul's words in 1 & 2 Thessalonians are clear:  those in Christ are not overtaken as thief, and before we who are in Christ are gathered together with Jesus at His return, there will first be a great apostasy and the end tomes antichrist will be revealed. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

There will be more than one taking up of the saints of God from off the earth. The first is the rapture of a minority remnant who are found by the Lord watching, abiding, and vigilantly living habitually in the Spirit.  But the majority of Christians will be caught off guard and miss this pre-tribulation rapture. This early pre-tribulation rapture requires building up a habit of habitual abiding in the Spirit in a moment by moment way.

Then that majority will have to pass through the three and one half years of the great tribulation to be taken up by the Lord at its end. At least there are these two major parts of the complete rapture of all the universal church. 

Sometimes this has been referred to as Selective Rapture. I am convinced of its more realistic accuracy than either schools of thought which hold the entire church is rapture either pre-tribulation or end-tribulation.

Interesting.  Not even one verse to back up the claim about a so-called "selective rapture".

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

Anyone wish to examine its veracity? Ask specifically so that each post may not be too lengthy.

The real issue is about resurrection rather than rapture.  And the Bible is clear about how many resurrections there will be.

First, the Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection (singular) of the saved and a resurrection (singular) of the unsaved.

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15

Second, the singular resurrection is specifically mentioned in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Red words refer to Jesus Christ receiving the FIRST immortal glorified body, also taught in Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”  So this means that every person 'raised from the dead' before Christ didn't receive a glorified immortal body.

Blue words refer to the Second Advent, as Heb 9:28 indicates:  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.  If this refers to a pretrib rapture/resurrection, then the actual Second Advent MUST BE called the Third Advent.  But there are only 2 advents.

Purple words refer to every saved person in human history.  Unless there is any verse that clearly indicates that there is a group of saved people who don't "belong to Him".

Rev 20:4-6 mentions that the resurrection of the martyred saints at the Second Advent are in the FIRST resurrection.  Since the first 3 verses in my post show a single resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved, when do you suppose the SECOND resurrection will occur?  The answer is in Rev 20.

If any of the verses I've cited/quoted don't say what I have used them for, please correct my error.

[FreeGrace]

19 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Revelation 14:15 says that this is a reaping of the HARVEST. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Seriously?  Please keep reading the text.  v.16-20

So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

How does a winepress of God's wrath relate to a resurrection of believers and trip to heaven?

19 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

But before the HARVEST is ripened the FIRSTFRUITS are ripened. And the FIRSTFRUITS which matured and ripened earlier are seen already standing in Heaven with Christ in the same chapter in verses 1-6.

And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. (v.1) These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (v.14b)

Because the time of ripening and rapture of these two groups is not the same, one is called FIRSTFRUITS being FIRST to ripen. And the other is called HARVEST being the latter ones to ripen.

Just because the Bible uses "firstfruits" in Rev 14 doesn't mean EVERY use of "firstfruits" in the NT refers to a pre-trib rapture.  iow, there is no relevance between HARVEST and RESURRECTION.  Zero.

And there is no clear indication that Rev 14 is even about a resurrection with trip to heaven.  

Further, 1 Cor 15:23 refutes any notion of more than 1 resurrection, which is "when He comes" and will be for "those who belong to Him".  Couldn't be more clear.  This 1 verse trumps every claim about multiple resurrections/raptures.