Cheap Grace and Easy Believeism.

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

You said: "I asked you to explain 2 Cor 5:14,15 and Heb 2:9, just 3 verses that refer to Christ's atonement and the word 'all' was used in all 3. Can you do it?"

Freegrace....Yes, I think I can. But what happens is you send a lot of things my way at once! I appreciate the feedback but It's hard for me to return as quickly as you. I don't know how you do it.

All I'm doing is responding to your posts.  I take one point/paragraph at a time.  And it does take some time because your posts aren't brief.  

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

Anyway, I think all three verses will actually tie in nicely. 

( The first two verses you presented):

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[15]And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

So if we get a broader scope, Who are  "they which live?"

I think you're getting off track.  I wasn't about this "broader scope", which is really a smokescreen.  I wanted you to directly address the word "all" in both verses, and what do they refer to?  Real simple, just address the word "all".

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

Well, They no longer live  "unto themselves" but unto Christ who died for " them"( #846, which does not not include "all"). So it would be correct to say " Christ died for all them".

Well, you totally ignored both "and"'s.  Which was the focus of my question.  In essence, you moved the goal posts.  Could you get back to the word "all" and explain how it can't refer to all of humanity?

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

(The third verse you presented):

Hebrews 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Let's continue......

[10]For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

[11]For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Right away we see " many sons".     "Many" ( #4183 polos) KJV Usage: many (210x), much (73x), great (59x),

All of this is totally irrelevant.  You know why?  They DON'T refer back to "all" in v.9.  v.10 begins a new paragraph, which means the author has switched gears and subject matter.  Yes, v.10 speaks of Jesus "bringing many sons to glory", but that doesn't involve who He died for.  I understand why Calvinists think so, because they believe the dead of Christ is what actually saves people.  Even though the Bible doesn't say that anywhere.

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

Well you know what I already think. But it is true, that " every man" doesn't always mean " every man that ever lived".

I've already addressed the issue.  There are many verses that don't include "man" after "all".  Of course "all men" can mean "all kinds of men", but there are many verses that just have "all", all by itself.  And you just skipped right over them.  Like 2 Cor 5;14,15 and Heb 2:9.  Are you going to claim in those 3 verses you read them as "all kinds of"?  Then, all kinds of what?  The author didn't state "kinds" of anything.  Both authors just said that "Christ died for all", and you still haven't faced the music on those verses.

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

[44](No man) can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I love when Calvinists do this;  quote John 6:44 and ignore v.45, which explains specifically WHO will come to Jesus.

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

First point in red:  everyone will be taught by God.  This most likely refers to Romans 1:19,20, in which creation reveals the existence of God AND His divine attributes.

Second point in blue:  refers to those who have "listened and learned from the Father".  Remember God will teach everyone.  But only some listen and learn.

Third point in orange:  result of paying attention to the teaching by God.  They respond to the gospel.  An excellent example of this is Cornelius, in Acts 10.

[Luther]

24 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

All I'm doing is responding to your posts.  I take one point/paragraph at a time.  And it does take some time because your posts aren't brief.  

I think you're getting off track.  I wasn't about this "broader scope", which is really a smokescreen.  I wanted you to directly address the word "all" in both verses, and what do they refer to?  Real simple, just address the word "all".

Well, you totally ignored both "and"'s.  Which was the focus of my question.  In essence, you moved the goal posts.  Could you get back to the word "all" and explain how it can't refer to all of humanity?

All of this is totally irrelevant.  You know why?  They DON'T refer back to "all" in v.9.  v.10 begins a new paragraph, which means the author has switched gears and subject matter.  Yes, v.10 speaks of Jesus "bringing many sons to glory", but that doesn't involve who He died for.  I understand why Calvinists think so, because they believe the dead of Christ is what actually saves people.  Even though the Bible doesn't say that anywhere.

I've already addressed the issue.  There are many verses that don't include "man" after "all".  Of course "all men" can mean "all kinds of men", but there are many verses that just have "all", all by itself.  And you just skipped right over them.  Like 2 Cor 5;14,15 and Heb 2:9.  Are you going to claim in those 3 verses you read them as "all kinds of"?  Then, all kinds of what?  The author didn't state "kinds" of anything.  Both authors just said that "Christ died for all", and you still haven't faced the music on those verses.

I love when Calvinists do this;  quote John 6:44 and ignore v.45, which explains specifically WHO will come to Jesus.

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

First point in red:  everyone will be taught by God.  This most likely refers to Romans 1:19,20, in which creation reveals the existence of God AND His divine attributes.

Second point in blue:  refers to those who have "listened and learned from the Father".  Remember God will teach everyone.  But only some listen and learn.

Third point in orange:  result of paying attention to the teaching by God.  They respond to the gospel.  An excellent example of this is Cornelius, in Acts 10.

Well I don't understand your hermeneutics then. I was always led by the Holy Spirit to " compare spiritual things with spiritual" ( 2 Corinthians 1). 

I don't jump around here and there....the Bible is one cohesive work, OT and NT. 

( I can tell you right now I'm gonna get some heat from my last post on  "Replacement Theology". But I believe what I believe). 

In other words, just because we don't see the word " atonement ", doesn't mean that you can't explain it unless the word "atonement" is in the verse. It seems like you have a tendency to do that. I think I'm laying out some good arguments and it's like you're dismissing them on those grounds. 

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So when we compare scripture with scripture, it can be understood that  "They" who are being "taught by God" are the children of God in the New Jerusalem ( heaven):

Isaiah 54:13

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Isaiah 11:9-10

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[10]And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Edited January 6 by Luther
added " we"

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Luther

God informed Moses that he had made the distinction between Issac and all the other children of Abraham and between Jacob and Esau. 

This is why he mentioned only isaac and jacob as being in the blessings of Abraham who were the only ones from the children of Abraham and Isaac to be gathered to Abraham after their death and he included Moses and the Israelites because He said that I am their God and they are my people and no one else. The time came that God revealed to Jacob that he has a blessing that he had promised to Abraham and He changed his name to Israel something God did with Abraham and he changed his name from Abram to Abraham. Not only the children who were born to him and he included them in the blessings but also God included his other children to be born from Rachel. And the blessings went to their children's children. The blessing was that they were all alive to God while they lived and after they died because they were in the inheritance of Abraham being gathered to Abraham after their death. God continued to be their God. They were the People of God while they lived and continued to be the people of God after their death just like Abraham Isaac and Jacob. And they all together with Abraham were waiting for the promised of God for the blessed one whom God had promised that when he comes he will deliver them out from the inheritance of Abraham and into the place God had prepared for them so they can be where He is. 

All God had who were with Abraham were given to Jesus Christ. And all Jesus Christ has with the preaching of the Gospel are also God's Children in Him. 

One body with one head, one Lord, one Savior one Spirit. So Jesus Christ is the blessed hope of all. God in Jesus Christ at his death he joint both Jews and Gentiles into one body as both of them they have the forgiveness of their sins in the same way in Jesus Christ. 

You said "All God had who were with Abraham were given to Jesus Christ"

That is an unBiblical statement. 

Romans 9:6-8,11

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

[8]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[11](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

" 7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children"

Romans 9:6-8,11,27

[6]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

[8]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[11](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[27]Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 9:6-8,11,27,30-32

[6]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

[7]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

[8]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[11](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

[27]Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

[30]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

[31]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

[32]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

It's only a remnant saved by grace through faith. 

Edited January 6 by Luther

[DeighAnn]

9 minutes ago, Luther said:

It's only a remnant saved by grace through faith. 

What about this verse?  If there is a quick answer that's not too off track anyhow...

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


 

[Luther]

25 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

What about this verse?  If there is a quick answer that's not too off track anyhow...

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


 

Amen. The great multitude is made up of a remnant from all nations. We're talking millions of believers I would imagine. 

[BornAgain490]

22 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

But, within His absolute sovereignty, God created humanity with a conscience, which is how God holds humanity accountable for the choices they make.

We do indeed have a conscience,  along with a lifeless spirit before regeneration occurs. 

Before our regeneration, our conscience may be inclined to be moral, to do good, but not for any reason other than what the will of spiritually lifeless man desires, which Paul calls walking after the flesh and minding the things of the flesh. 

Only when one is regenetated in Christ will he walk after the Spirit and mind the things of the Spirit. 

36 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Unregenerate man is fully able to believe the gospel

Sure. Unregenerate man can believe (as in give mental assent toward) anything he hears or reads, but they're unregenerate until they are born again.  Because he is unregenerate, he doesn't have saving faith, he doesn't trust, and doesn't rest in the gospel message,  because he is unregenerate.  Remember, the devils believe God and tremble at His name.  The unregenerate man doesn't even tremble because he isn't saved.  Only the regenerate man puts his faith, trust, and rest in the gospel of our salvation, because only the regenerate man is saved in Christ. 

50 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

since it would be God choosing who will believe or not

Correct. God does the choosing, and did so before the foundation of the world was laid. 

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Rather than address each verse, I'll just summarize.  NONE of them say in plain clear words that God chooses people to salvation.

Actually, all the verses clearly record God's sovereignty in choosing and electing all who will come to Him, for salvation. 

If you're one of those that need to see the word "salvation" in order to know God's word is speaking about salvation, I can understand how you'd be unable to respond. 

Let me ask you:  is the word "grace" in John 3:16?  Don't you see God's grace in John 3:16?  I hope you do. 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

One has to add the concept of unconditional here

Who is choosing the few out of the many?  Sovereign God, unconditionally, by implication. 

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

How about John 6:44?  “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Now, what about the next verse, v.45?  It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

The sovereign Father draws them. 

V.45 clearly affirms that which Paul wrote in Romans 10:17, "So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", and that with Luke wrote in Acts 18:8, "and many of the Corinthians hearing believed..."

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Jn 13:18 I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.[3]’

What about John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”  71 - (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

These verses clearly show that Jesus chose Judas as the betrayer, which is a service, and certainly not to salvation

The point is: God is sovereign in choosing, some for service and some for salvation.  

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Thanks for another verse that is about service, and this verse plainly tells us what service His 11 disciples/apostles were chosen for:  to bear fruit.

Sovereign God chose them for service and salvation, just as Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10, "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God had before ordained that we should walk in them."

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

The Greek word here translated "calls" means to invite.  Not chosen unconditionally.

Again, this shows the sovereign nature of God calling some men to salvation. 

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Same principle here:  we are saved by grace.  AND . . . that salvation is THROUGH FAITH.

We are saved by God's grace, and justified through God's gracious gift of faith.  

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Rom 10:10 says that man believes from his heart.  If God was regenerating people so that they WOULD believe, this verse isn't being honest.  It would say, "man believes from his regeneration.

"From his heart" is referring to the inner spirit of man.  A lifeless spirit has no ability to believe spiritual things. You must be born again.  Once regeneration of the spirit comes, so, too, does saving faith that justifies us before our thrice holy God. 

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

God ADDS those who are believing the gospel "to their number".  Nothing about unconditional election

They were believing because they were hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Since they believed after hearing the gospel, they were foreknown by God, called, predestinated, chosen, elect. 

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Rom 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

No mention of unconditional election here.  btw, not even "election" itself

You really must hate reading Romans 8:33.  

Election is clearly unconditional.  Everyone who is saved is elect, and everyone who is elect will be saved. 

I'm ending here for tonight. 

[FreeGrace]

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

Well I don't understand your hermeneutics then. I was always led by the Holy Spirit to " compare spiritual things with spiritual" ( 2 Corinthians 1).

My verses are called "plain language", meaning so obvious (clear) that the sentence doesn't need to be "interpreted".

If your car ran out of gas, and you called you wife and said, "My car ran out of gas, so I'll be late coming home." does that need to be "interpreted", or is it clear enough to be fully understood as is?

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

I don't jump around here and there....the Bible is one cohesive work, OT and NT.

Actually, it's not.  One does have to find clear and  plain (straight forward) verses that SAY what you say (believe).  

Are you aware of the Bereans?  Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

iow, the red words mean they checked to make sure that what Paul said was what the Bible said.  

So, as I've said, I have researched every occurrence of "elect/chose" in the NT, by noun, verb and adjective.  And there are NO verses that SAY election is to salvation.

The verses that include the purpose in that particular election ALL show that election is to service.

Excellent example is 1 Cor 1:27,28

27 - But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

28 - God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not —to nullify the things that are,

In each verse, the red phrases tell us who God has chosen.  The blue phrases state the PURPOSE in that election/choosing.  These verses certainly are not about salvation, but rather God choosing believers of various characteristics to service for Him.

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

( I can tell you right now I'm gonna get some heat from my last post on  "Replacement Theology". But I believe what I believe).

Actually, everyone does believe what they believe.  

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

In other words, just because we don't see the word " atonement ", doesn't mean that you can't explain it unless the word "atonement" is in the verse.

But I never said that.  In fact, I've been careful to avoid even the suggestion of specific wording.  I ask about verses that "teach . . .".  That doesn't require specific wording.

The 'atonement' is what Christ did on the cross;  dying for people.  The scope is "all".  There aren't any verses that plainly teach that He died ONLY for SOME, or that He didn't die for everyone.  Just the opposite, many say just that He died for all.

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

It seems like you have a tendency to do that. I think I'm laying out some good arguments and it's like you're dismissing them on those grounds.

I dismiss the arguments that don't make your point.  

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So when we compare scripture with scripture, it can be understood that  "They" who are being "taught by God" are the children of God in the New Jerusalem ( heaven):

Isaiah 54:13

And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Aren't you aware that "all thy children" refers to the NATION of Israel, and not just the saved ones?  Read the chapter.  It's about God blessing the land and people.  Not just specific ones.  

And again, as I pointed out earlier, teaching a classroom doesn't guarantee that all students in the classroom will learn.  And the very clear point of John 6:45 is those who have "listened and learned from the Father".  Not every listens and learns.  For some reason, it seems you want to ignore that FACT.

47 minutes ago, Luther said:

Isaiah 11:9-10

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[10]And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This verse backs up what Rom 1:19,20 says.  Creation reveals the very nature of God, or as Isa 11;9 says, the "full knowledge of the Lord".

[DeighAnn]

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

Amen. The great multitude is made up of a remnant from all nations. We're talking millions of believers I would imagine. 

Doesn't that just explain the 'house of Israel' once scattered and sifted amongst all the nations and isles some 2200? or so years ago being gathered in Christ...Shepherd of 'the lost sheep'...and whomsoever would of those not of the bloodline

 

[FreeGrace]

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

We do indeed have a conscience,  along with a lifeless spirit before regeneration occurs. 

Nice try, but no dice.  You're not going to get away with the "problem of the dead human spirit".  Everyone is born with that.  And we KNOW from Eph 2:5 that Paul equated regeneration with salvation.  Then, in v.8 Paul said that we are saved by grace, through faith.  That word "through" means that faith precedes salvation. Argument is futile and only shows that one doesn't really understand what word mean and how they are used.  

The word "through" can be translated as "by means of".  Does that help?  It should.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Before our regeneration, our conscience may be inclined to be moral, to do good, but not for any reason other than what the will of spiritually lifeless man desires, which Paul calls walking after the flesh and minding the things of the flesh. 

This is all irrelevant since the Bible says that man 'refuses to believe' in Acts 14:2 and 19:9.  This proves that man IS ABLE TO BELIEVE, since  are choices.

If one is UNABLE to do something, he can't legitimately say that he refuses to do something.  That doesn't even make sense.

If one is unable to do something, he is UNABLE to refuse to do it, just as he is UNABLE to do it.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Only when one is regenetated in Christ will he walk after the Spirit and mind the things of the Spirit.

This isn't the argument.  I agree with this.  What I strongly disagree with is the claim that God must regenerate the poor 'ol unregenerate so that he CAN believe.  That isn't taught anywhere in the Bible.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Unregenerate man can believe (as in give mental assent toward) anything he hears or reads, but they're unregenerate until they are born again.

Of course.  Like saying, "one is wrong until one is right".  Obviously.  But I'm proving that the unregenerate CAN choose to believe the gospel just as the unregenerate CAN choose to refuse to believe.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Because he is unregenerate, he doesn't have saving faith, he doesn't trust, and doesn't rest in the gospel message,  because he is unregenerate.

You're talking in circles here.  Since the Bible SAYS that men refuse to believe, obviously they would be unregenerate, so their refusal is a choice, just as believing is a choice.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Remember, the devils believe God and tremble at His name.

That's just a very tired and erroneous abuse of James 2:18.  James' point is that just because YOU (his audience) were Jewish and believed that "God is One" (Trinity) so do the demons believe that.  What?  That God is One.  Why do they believe it?  All demons are fallen angels and were IN heaven until they rebelled and joined Satan.  So they believe based on FACTS.  Believing the gospel for humans requires trust.  The demons don't "trust" that God is One.  They KNOW it from personal experience.

Humans have to "take God at His word", which means to TRUST what He says.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  The unregenerate man doesn't even tremble because he isn't saved.

Irrelevant.  

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Only the regenerate man puts his faith, trust, and rest in the gospel of our salvation, because only the regenerate man is saved in Christ.

You can't prove your claim and I have proved my claim from Eph 2:5 and 8.  How about addressing those 2 verses and show me where I'm wrong about what they SAY?

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Correct. God does the choosing, and did so before the foundation of the world was laid.

God's choosing is never unconditional.  Judas was a scoundrel, an opportunist and thief.  Since God knew that he would do what he did, given the opportunity, God chose him to do it, knowing he would.  So you see, Judas was chosen for service.  Not salvation.  Made very clear in John 6:71.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Actually, all the verses clearly record God's sovereignty in choosing and electing all who will come to Him, for salvation.

How can you say that with a straight face??  How about choosing the very best ONE and quoting it to me, so I can see what you are reading.  I've been through EVERY verse with the noun, verb and adjective regarding election and NONE of them say that.  So I'm curious why you think "all the verses clearly . . .". 

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

If you're one of those that need to see the word "salvation" in order to know God's word is speaking about salvation, I can understand how you'd be unable to respond. 

Nonsense.  You know better than that.  You haven't even been through every election verse in the NT.  Or you would have said so and KNOWN that I am right.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Let me ask you:  is the word "grace" in John 3:16?  Don't you see God's grace in John 3:16?  I hope you do.

You're missing the point.  Eph 2:8 plainly states we are saved by grace.  When the whole counsel is considered, we don't make such mistakes.  Just like the Trinity, which doesn't occur in the Bible, but the concept clearly does, since The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are all called God.  That proves the Trinity even though the word doesn't occur in the Bible.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Who is choosing the few out of the many?  Sovereign God, unconditionally, by implication.

You don't know whether any of His choices are unconditional.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

The sovereign Father draws them.

He draws those who have listened and learned.  ie:  paid attention.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

V.45 clearly affirms that which Paul wrote in Romans 10:17, "So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", and that with Luke wrote in Acts 18:8, "and many of the Corinthians hearing believed..."

The point is: God is sovereign in choosing, some for service and some for salvation.

Yet, you still haven't quoted even one verse that states that God chooses for salvation.

btw, the Calvinist doctrine of election, when boiled down to its basic concept is this:  God unconditionally chooses who will believe.

That is the real meaning of the doctrine of election per Calvinists.  Per the real bottom line of Calvinist theology, faith is merely a by product of election.  So faith seems to be always minimized.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Sovereign God chose them for service and salvation, just as Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10, "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God had before ordained that we should walk in them."

No verse says that God chooses anyone for salvation, and v.10 is clearly about service.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Again, this shows the sovereign nature of God calling some men to salvation.

Do you really understand the Greek word "kletos" translated "calling"?  It means to INVITE.  Titus 2:11 advances on that idea by saying that the GRACE of God offers salvation to everyone.  

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

We are saved by God's grace, and justified through God's gracious gift of faith.

Can you show me any verse that calls faith a gift of God?  I don't believe you.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

"From his heart" is referring to the inner spirit of man.  A lifeless spirit has no ability to believe spiritual things.

Got news f0r you.  The gospel isn't "spiritual things".  It is a trust issue.  There is a big difference.  You keep trying to prove that unregenerate people cannot believe but the Bible proves Calvinism wrong 0n that, because men choose to refuse to believe, which means they can do the opposite;  to believe.  

If you can't follow that line of reasoning, it's because the Calvinist bias is too great and won't let truth through.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

You must be born again. 

Of course.  Everyone is born with a dead human spirit, so that is why everyone needs to be born again, or regenerated.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Once regeneration of the spirit comes, so, too, does saving faith that justifies us before our thrice holy God.

This is a Calvinist talking point with NO support from Scripture.

What clear and straightforward verse says what you say?

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

They were believing because they were hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Bible says plainly that "men refused to believe".  And they also heard the gospel.  Seems you think anyone who hears the gospel will believe.  Not true.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

You really must hate reading Romans 8:33.

Can you explain to me why I "must" hate the verse?  I have no idea why I should.

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Election is clearly unconditional.

OK, I'll bite.  What is so "clear" about it?  Where is the proof?

9 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Everyone who is saved is elect, and everyone who is elect will be saved. 

Judas was never saved because he never believed, yet Jesus SAID that He CHOSE him.

So your claim is untrue.

The basic error is thinking of "some" unbelievers walking around who "are elect" because God chose them to believe.  That is foreign to the Bible.

[BornAgain490]

53 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

If one is unable to do something, he is UNABLE to refuse to do it, just as he is UNABLE to do it.

Spiritually dead men can choose to do and refuse to do lots of things, they just aren't able to regenerate their dead spirit and come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, because saving faith is a gift of God.  Since a  spiritually dead man is unregenerate, he has not been gifted saving faith, nor will he unless he is among the elect. 

Edited January 6 by BornAgain490