Cheap Grace and Easy Believeism.

[BornAgain490]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The sovereign Father draws them.

He draws those who have listened and learned.  ie:  paid attention

Yes. They listened, which means they HEARD the word of God BEFORE they learned, and before they were drawn to God.  Faith comes by hearing the word of God. 

[Luther]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

My verses are called "plain language", meaning so obvious (clear) that the sentence doesn't need to be "interpreted".

If your car ran out of gas, and you called you wife and said, "My car ran out of gas, so I'll be late coming home." does that need to be "interpreted", or is it clear enough to be fully understood as is?

Actually, it's not.  One does have to find clear and  plain (straight forward) verses that SAY what you say (believe).  

Are you aware of the Bereans?  Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

iow, the red words mean they checked to make sure that what Paul said was what the Bible said.  

So, as I've said, I have researched every occurrence of "elect/chose" in the NT, by noun, verb and adjective.  And there are NO verses that SAY election is to salvation.

The verses that include the purpose in that particular election ALL show that election is to service.

Excellent example is 1 Cor 1:27,28

27 - But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

28 - God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not —to nullify the things that are,

In each verse, the red phrases tell us who God has chosen.  The blue phrases state the PURPOSE in that election/choosing.  These verses certainly are not about salvation, but rather God choosing believers of various characteristics to service for Him.

Actually, everyone does believe what they believe.  

But I never said that.  In fact, I've been careful to avoid even the suggestion of specific wording.  I ask about verses that "teach . . .".  That doesn't require specific wording.

The 'atonement' is what Christ did on the cross;  dying for people.  The scope is "all".  There aren't any verses that plainly teach that He died ONLY for SOME, or that He didn't die for everyone.  Just the opposite, many say just that He died for all.

I dismiss the arguments that don't make your point.  

Aren't you aware that "all thy children" refers to the NATION of Israel, and not just the saved ones?  Read the chapter.  It's about God blessing the land and people.  Not just specific ones.  

And again, as I pointed out earlier, teaching a classroom doesn't guarantee that all students in the classroom will learn.  And the very clear point of John 6:45 is those who have "listened and learned from the Father".  Not every listens and learns.  For some reason, it seems you want to ignore that FACT.

This verse backs up what Rom 1:19,20 says.  Creation reveals the very nature of God, or as Isa 11;9 says, the "full knowledge of the Lord".

"So, as I've said, I have researched every occurrence of "elect/chose" in the NT, by noun, verb and adjective. And there are NO verses that SAY election is to salvation."

The word elect means:

(#1588): Greek: ἐκλεκτός

Transliteration: eklektos

Pronunciation: ek-lek-tos'

Definition: From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen elect.

KJV Usage: elect (16x), chosen (7x).

" Favorite", " chosen" , "elect"

The definition of Election is what it is. It's not going to say what we think it should say. 

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant are those chosen to salvation, " according to the (divine selection, #1589, election), of grace.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The " election of grace" is the "divine selection saved through faith ".

Can you see how it works when we compare scripture?

"If your car ran out of gas....."

I'm sorry, you cannot compare physical happenstance with the Bible. It is a spiritual book. 

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Spiritually dead men can choose to do and refuse to do lots of things, they just aren't able to regenerate their dead spirit and come to saving faith in Jesus Christ

No one is able to regenerate themselves, so your comment is totally false.

Not even Calvinists are able to regenerate themselves.

Are you really unaware of Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Regeneration is God's work alone.  You get no credit for it.

9 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 because saving faith is a gift of God.

I've proven from Eph 2:5 and 8 that faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.  One has to disbelieve these verses to make this claim.

9 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

  Since a  spiritually dead man is unregenerate, he has not been gifted saving faith, nor will he unless he is among the elect. 

Just another talking point of Calvinism.  None of it is biblical.  Or you would have fed the verses to me by now.

Rather, the Bible teaches that men REFUSE to believe, proving that they ARE CAPABLE of believing, since both are free choices.

And you are free to REFUSE to believe the truth.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Man refuses to believe because he is unregenerate. Only a regenerated man is gifted saving faith, because he predestinated and among the elect. 

Your REFUSAL to accept the CLEAR TRUTH is amazing.  You've been check-mated but REFUSE to acknowledge it.

You're stuck on the talking points, which are not taught in Scripture.

Or, if they were, where are they?

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Ephesians 2:5,8-9 clearly tell us saving faith is a gift that God gives by His grace. 

Those verses to NOT support your talking points, which are unbiblical.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved (masculine gender), through faith (feminine gender)—and this is not from yourselves, it is (masculine gender) the gift of God—

In the Greek, the gender of words match.  So here, we see that salvation and "it is the gift of God" are masculine, while faith is feminine.

This proves that the verse DOES NOT SAY that faith is a gift of God.

But, you are free to REFUSE to believe the truth.

You may confirm this on biblehub.com or ask any Greek scholar.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Unregenerate men are spiritually dead.  Spiritually dead men don't mind anything spiritual. To believe the gospel is to acknowledge that we worship God in spirit and in truth. Dead spirits don't worship. You must first be born again. 

All you've proven is that you don't think God can save a spiritually dead man unless that spiritually dead man first makes a spiritual decision from his lifeless spirit to have saving faith in God, whom we are told to worship in spirit and in truth. Nonsense. 

So much talking points, but no truth at all in any of them.  Or you would have shown me them by now.

The gospel is a trust issue.  Do you believe that God exists and that He promises eternal life to those who believe that Jesus died for their sins on the cross.  That isn't a "spiritual issue".  

Spiritual issues deal with how to be filled with the Spirit, how to restore fellowship with God after you've sinned, what it means to grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.  And yes, unbelievers cannot understand any of these issues.

But the gospel is clearly a trust issue.  Do you believe that Christ died for your sins and will save you from the LOF if you trust Him to do that?

I will repeat as long as it takes:  believing and REFUSING to believe are choices that all of humanity is able to do.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Again, spiritually dead men can make all sort of choices, except when it comes to spiritual matters,  because they're spiritually dead. 

Regeneration is the sovereign monergistic providence of the God by His grace, and it's efficacious only to the elect.  

All your talking points are not biblical, or where are the verses that clearly teach this?

Huh?  I've proven that that unregenerates REFUSE to believe, proving that they CAN believe.  

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

  FreeGrace said:

Humans have to "take God at His word", which means to TRUST what He says.

Correct, except unregenerate man is wholly incapable of doing so. 

Your own REFUSAL to believe the truth of Scripture is beyond amazing.

But I understand your theology.  It is the puppeteer who pulls all the strings, and even chooses which puppets to do what he wants.

You know this is exactly how Calvinists think, and you demonstrate it in every one of your posts.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Irrelevant? 

If unregenerate man isn't saved, that logically means he has not faith that saves, which means he doesn't believe, because he cannot believe.  

Just more of your unbiblical talking points.  Every human being is born unregenerate.  Since the Bible teaches very clearly that mankind is ACCOUNTABLE, proves that all of humanity CAN believe the gospel promise, but are free to either believe or refuse to believe.

Not only the Bible teaches this, but it is just obviously common sense.  Maybe it's just Calvinists who are so blinded by their theology that they can't see the truth.

All of your responses are just talking points.  No verses that support any of them.

I have provided verses that plainly SAY what I SAY.  Meaning, I agree with the Bible.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Reading post.. that I could agree with yet if you really want to make a statement like some have been doing then it needs to be back up by the word of God. Just saying it because we believe it to be true does not make it true. 

Thank you for your wisdom in saying this.  I've been trying to encourage those who disagree with me to do that, but they only keep repeating their theological talking points.  No verses.