1 Cor. 15:23 and Selective Resurrection

[Feedmysheep]

For my part this thread is dedicated to refuting an objection to a thread Selective Rapture by FreeGrace. So many side points obscured this debate that I felt the need to more isolate his objection to a discussion on selective pre-tribulation rapture. Hence, there is more focus on resurrection.

Here is the issue's focus.  Does First Corinthians 15:23 prove that there cannot be more than one resurretion event at the end of the church age? This is not about the seperate resurrection of unsaved people to be condemned after the millennial kingdom. It concerns those believers who are God's at the end of the church age. FreeGrace is invited to defend his view if he wants to. 

First Corinthians 15:22, 23 - 

For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;

[Feedmysheep]

Does First Corinthians 15 insist that there could only be ONE event in the end of the church age in which those who are Christ's are resurrected?  I say the general discription of "the firstfruits Christ, then those who are Christ's at His coming" does not obligate God to not have more than one point in time in which all His are raised from the dead.

Neither quality wise God does not have to have only one resurrection.

Nor point of time wise God does not have to conduct all resurrections.

Generally, those who are Christ's at His coming means at the close of the church age. Details indicate that a smaller remnant minority will be resurrected and caught up to the throne of God prior to the last 1,260 days of this present age.

Therefore the resurrection of this remnant and the larger resurrection will be seperated by 42 months, 1,260 days, and threee and one half years. 

 

[Feedmysheep]

Rv. 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rv 12:2And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.

Rv 12:3And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Rv 12:4And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child.

Rv 12:5And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Rv 12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Edited January 1 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

Those who are Christ's at His coming are all resurrected. Some of those who are Christ's at His coming will be rewarded to co-reign with Him over the nations in the millennium.

Of these who are resurrected to co-reign with Christ there are at least two catagories.

1.) Those who were killed by Antichrist during the great tribulation of 3.5 years. (Rev. 20:4-6) 

2.) Those who were killed and resurrected before the Antichrist is given power to persecute saints. (Rev. 12:1-6)

[Feedmysheep]

1.)  The woman who brought forth the man-child represents ALL God's people from the beginning of the Bible through to the end.

      Verses will be provided when I see interest shown. 

2.) The man-child's delivery means resurrection and rapture.

3.)  The man-child consists of saints from the OT and NT times who died for their faith before the GT.

4.)  The advent of their resurrection and rapture is the CAUSE and the CATALYST for the great tribulation to even begin.

5.)  These resurrected saints died prior to the GT time. And they are resurrected prior to the larger general resurrection after the GT.

 I will provide more detailed explanation in this thread if you stay tuned. 

 

Edited January 1 by Feedmysheep

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Does First Corinthians 15 insist that there could only be ONE event in the end of the church age in which those who are Christ's are resurrected?  I say the general discription of "the firstfruits Christ, then those who are Christ's at His coming" does not obligate God to not have more than one point in time in which all His are raised from the dead.

Neither quality wise God does not have to have only one resurrection.

Nor point of time wise God does not have to conduct all resurrections.

Generally, those who are Christ's at His coming means at the close of the church age. Details indicate that a smaller remnant minority will be resurrected and caught up to the throne of God prior to the last 1,260 days of this present age.

Therefore the resurrection of this remnant and the larger resurrection will be seperated by 42 months, 1,260 days, and threee and one half years. 

 

It is sad that such a crucial subject does not draw more response. Or perhaps the malady lies elsewhere. Let me venture an opinion.

Current Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith. Being saved means going to heaven. By wresting 2nd Corinthians 5, a case is made for a spiritual body being put on in heaven. The rest of men go to hell, though the same people who tell this are not sure where hell is since the world is burned up. 1st Corinthians 15 is mostly ignored. This theory, sold mainly by the Roman Catholic Church during the so-called "dark-ages", is fraught with difficulties. But above these difficulties is a deep affront to Jehovah because he is deemed to have had a plan with man for the EARTH (Gen.1:26-28) and is forced to take a lessor and different outcome. 

For those who do believe in the resurrection, some issues confound, one of them being the theme of the OP - a split, or multiple resurrection. But with a little care the problem is quickly resolved. The first issue is to note that a split, or multiple resurrection is already a fact. By the time of our Lord's resurrection there had been at least 6 others - all separate events. They were; 1 at Elijah's time, 2 at Elisha's time, and 3 raised by Jesus. But immediately a difficulty arises. Noe of these seven resurrections, except Christ's, are called "the FIRST Resurrection". This term is used in Revelation 20 for martyrs who died and were only resurrected 2,000 years after Christ was. The problem is quickly solved.

The Greek word "protos" can mean BOTH FIRST in time and it can mean FIRST in rank or importance. Since the martyrs of Revelation 20 are resurrected approximately 2,700 years AFTER the child of Zarephath (1st Ki.17), the FIRST resurrection must mean "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE". It also means that Christ, 7th in TIME, cold be the FIRSTBORN of the dead. And in a matter of seconds we have laid the ground for MULTIPLE resurrections of DIFFERENT QUALITIES. But one more stumbling bloc must be removed. It is 1st Corinthians 15:22. It reads;

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Now, at least one out of two Christians secretly read, " 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all Christians be made alive."

Because of the "heaven-hell" doctrine, the average Christian sees no purpose for the unbeliever to be resurrected. Hitler can roast forever. No need to give him a body. But that is not the point. The point is God made man a "LIVING soul" and death is His MORTAL (excuse the pun) ENEMY. It is not whether of not the person believed of not. It is a matter of God subduing ALL His enemies. So John 5 and Revelation 20 say;

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

7 And when the thousand years are expired, ... 11 And I saw a great white throne, ... 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

Now our set is complete. WE see MULTIPLE resurrections as a fact, Jesus being BOTH the seventh and the FIRST. We see men who are resurrected 2,700 years after the first resurrection, belong the the resurrection of IMPORTANCE. And then, after another 1,000 years, we see a general resurrection which was predicted by John 5. BUT ONE MORE resurrection adds the punchline. The Christian is resurrected supposedly BEFORE the Great Tribulation (Lk.21:35-36, Rev.3:10), but Israel are resurrected AFTER the great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). BOTH are Christ's! Jesus is KING of Israel and HEAD of the Church. Thus, even the resurrection of "THOSE WHO ARE HIS" is divided by TIME AND IMPORTANCE.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

For my part this thread is dedicated to refuting an objection to a thread Selective Rapture by FreeGrace.

lol, seriously

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

So many side points obscured this debate that I felt the need to more isolate his objection to a discussion on selective pre-tribulation rapture.

Even though you never provided any verses that say what you say?  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Hence, there is more focus on resurrection.

What is obvious to most is that 1 Cor 15:23 is ONLY about resurrection, and you seem very resistant to what it obviously says.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Here is the issue's focus.  Does First Corinthians 15:23 prove that there cannot be more than one resurretion event at the end of the church age? This is not about the seperate resurrection of unsaved people to be condemned after the millennial kingdom. It concerns those believers who are God's at the end of the church age. FreeGrace is invited to defend his view if he wants to.

I defended my view thoroughly in that other thread where you provided no verse that says what you say.  

Not only 1 Cor 15:23 shows only 1 resurrection for the saved, which is "when He comes", meaning at the Second Advent, there are 3 more verses that plainly show a single resurrection for the saved and a single resurrection for the unsaved:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

First Corinthians 15:22, 23 - 

For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

But each one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ; then those who are Christ’s at His coming;

The original post of this verse was in all red, but I've color coded the parts for easier understanding.

In v.22, the blue words refer to the resurrection of believers, which are glorified immortal bodies.

In v.23, the green words refer to the FACT Jesus Christ is the FIRST human to receive a glorified immortal body, supported by Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Orange words refer to every saved person from Adam forward.  Because every believer belongs to Christ.

Purple words refer to the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Does it make sense to think this verse could refer to a pre-trib resurrection/rapture?  Of course not.  If it did, then there could be NO resurrection at the Second Advent.  Yet, Rev 20:4-6 very clearly calls the resurrection of trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection, so that eliminates any possibility of a pre-trib resurrection/rapture.

One final FACT:  There are NO verses that describe Jesus taking any resurrected saints to heaven.  So a pre-trib rapture is impossible.

 

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Does First Corinthians 15 insist that there could only be ONE event in the end of the church age in which those who are Christ's are resurrected?

This seems a rather cheap shot.  One doesn't need the word "insist" to show the FACT of the point.  The verse is in plain language, and no guessing is needed to fully follow and understand what it says.

1. Jesus Christ received the FIRST resurrection body.  Acts 26:23

2. All saved humans will be resurrected "when He comes".  

3.  "when He comes" refers to the Second Advent.  Heb 9:28

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  I say the general discription of "the firstfruits Christ, then those who are Christ's at His coming" does not obligate God to not have more than one point in time in which all His are raised from the dead.

Only IF words don't mean anything.  iow, when one gets "loose" with words, they can come up with any old claim.

The words of 1 Cor 15:23 are very clear and straightforward.  And FMS doesn't have ANY verses that SAY what he SAYS.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Neither quality wise God does not have to have only one resurrection.

OK, then if that were true, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 cannot be true.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29 - and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.  The definite article "a" means singular.  If there were more than a single resurrection of the saved, as FMS claims, Paul wouldn't have written it in the singular.  He would have written, "there will be resurrections".

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Nor point of time wise God does not have to conduct all resurrections.

This doesn't make sense.  Please re-word for clarity.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Generally, those who are Christ's at His coming means at the close of the church age.

What do you mean by "generally"?  Please don't fudge.  Specifically, those who belong to Christ at the Second Advent is what is meant.  Actually, the verse couldn't be MORE CLEAR.  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Details indicate that a smaller remnant minority will be resurrected and caught up to the throne of God prior to the last 1,260 days of this present age.

FMS begins the OP with:  Here is the issue's focus.  Does First Corinthians 15:23 prove that there cannot be more than one resurretion event at the end of the church age?"

But now FMS wants to insert "details that indicate . . .".  Yet, he NEVER provided ANY verses in the other thread that supported any of his claims.

So, YES, 1 Cor 15:23 proves that there is only 1 resurrection and that one will be at the Second Advent.

And that is supported by the FACT that Rev 20:4 describes trib martyrs who were "raised to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years".  

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Therefore the resurrection of this remnant and the larger resurrection will be seperated by 42 months, 1,260 days, and threee and one half years. 

So where are these "details"?  He has NO verses that support his claims.  Just opinions.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Rv. 12:1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rv 12:2And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.

Rv 12:3And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Rv 12:4And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child.

Rv 12:5And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Rv 12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

None of these 6 verses says anything about either a resurrection or a rapture trip to heaven.

And FMS claims the "man-child" in v.5 is a corporate entity, even though the verse clearly describes the God-man, Jesus Christ.  Yes, He was resurrected and then ascended to heaven.  

But such a huge mis-read of Scripture doesn't help his case one bit.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Those who are Christ's at His coming are all resurrected. Some of those who are Christ's at His coming will be rewarded to co-reign with Him over the nations in the millennium.

Of these who are resurrected to co-reign with Christ there are at least two catagories.

1.) Those who were killed by Antichrist during the great tribulation of 3.5 years. (Rev. 20:4-6) 

2.) Those who were killed and resurrected before the Antichrist is given power to persecute saints. (Rev. 12:1-6)

All of this is accurate, and none of this supports his claim of multiple resurrections.  I keep wondering why he does things like this.