"ALL" should come to repentance.....

[Luther]

And here's a very controversial verse indeed:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In short summary, the most popular interpretation of this verse would be something like this: God doesn't want anyone to perish, he wants all of us to come to repentance. 

Well, do we believe in God's sovereignty or not? Does He not have control of His own salvation program or not? Is it just happenstance, like maybe some will come to him, maybe a lot, maybe no one, but He's hoping that all of us will come to repentance. So  then will God's will be done or the will of humanity? 

Before we look at the word " all", we have to understand the actual meaning of the word " willing", because it will have a direct effect on who " all" is, just like in John 6:37.

" Willing": Greek: βούλομαι

Transliteration: boulomai
Pronunciation: boo'-lom-ahee
Definition: Middle voice of a primary verb; to will that is (reflexively) be willing : - be disposed minded intend list (be of own) will (-ing). Compare G2309 .
KJV Usage: will (15x), would (11x), be minded (2x), intend (2x), be disposed (1x), be willing (1x), list (1x), of his own will (1x).
Occurs: 36

You can see the different English words that can be used to describe "boulomai". The King James translators did a nearly perfect job when translating the Greek and Hebrew for sure. However, there are a few areas where another English word would have been more suitable. And this is for several reasons. Remember, this translation was done over 400 years ago, and it remains to be an excellent work, definitely guided by God. But in today's vernacular, we might use that word in a different way.

I believe the word " intend" is better suited instead of " willing" in this verse. "....not intending that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

And scripture confirms:

God does not intend for " any" ( any of his chosen) to perish:

John 10:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[28]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

( "They" or "any" of the sheep who hear His voice will never perish)

                       ANY:

Matthew 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth [any] man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And another:

Matthew 16:24

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

( "Any man" who comes after Christ are those who can come to Christ, being drawn of the Father)

                      ALL:

2 Peter 3:9 "....all" should come to repentance...." All who were given to Christ by God the Father, ( John 6:37). 

John 17:9-10

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[10]And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Your thoughts?

[Ausie 52]

Why do you Calvinists always feel the need to push your Calvinism on others?

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Ausie 52 said:

Why do you Calvinists always feel the need to push your Calvinism on others?

To test us. A bus could drive through the holes in the OP's interpretation, but many cling to it not realising it goes beyond the contextual and comparative constraints of rightly appropriating and apportioning Scripture.

[enoob57]

Not one clear Scripture in the Bible supports Calvinism .... but many, yes many, clearly and with complete grammatical statement proclaims provisionism... SOTERIOLOGY 101 – A Professor and former 5-Point Calvinist Discussing the Doctrines of Salvation, Election, Predestination, and God's Amazing Grace.

[JohnD]

13 hours ago, Luther said:

And here's a very controversial verse indeed:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In short summary, the most popular interpretation of this verse would be something like this: God doesn't want anyone to perish, he wants all of us to come to repentance. 

Well, do we believe in God's sovereignty or not? Does He not have control of His own salvation program or not? Is it just happenstance, like maybe some will come to him, maybe a lot, maybe no one, but He's hoping that all of us will come to repentance. So  then will God's will be done or the will of humanity? 

Before we look at the word " all", we have to understand the actual meaning of the word " willing", because it will have a direct effect on who " all" is, just like in John 6:37.

" Willing": Greek: βούλομαι

Transliteration: boulomai
Pronunciation: boo'-lom-ahee
Definition: Middle voice of a primary verb; to will that is (reflexively) be willing : - be disposed minded intend list (be of own) will (-ing). Compare G2309 .
KJV Usage: will (15x), would (11x), be minded (2x), intend (2x), be disposed (1x), be willing (1x), list (1x), of his own will (1x).
Occurs: 36

You can see the different English words that can be used to describe "boulomai". The King James translators did a nearly perfect job when translating the Greek and Hebrew for sure. However, there are a few areas where another English word would have been more suitable. And this is for several reasons. Remember, this translation was done over 400 years ago, and it remains to be an excellent work, definitely guided by God. But in today's vernacular, we might use that word in a different way.

I believe the word " intend" is better suited instead of " willing" in this verse. "....not intending that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

And scripture confirms:

God does not intend for " any" ( any of his chosen) to perish:

John 10:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[28]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

( "They" or "any" of the sheep who hear His voice will never perish)

                       ANY:

Matthew 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth [any] man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And another:

Matthew 16:24

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

( "Any man" who comes after Christ are those who can come to Christ, being drawn of the Father)

                      ALL:

2 Peter 3:9 "....all" should come to repentance...." All who were given to Christ by God the Father, ( John 6:37). 

John 17:9-10

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[10]And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Your thoughts?

Bear in mind John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10. "Repent!" is not so much about cleaning up our act as it is turning from unbelief in Jesus to belief.

Cleaning us up (or more precisely forgiving our sins and imputing to us the righteousness of Christ) is Christ's work. Not ours. At best all we can do

AFTER we are saved is try our best not to sin. We will daily fail anyway. But in the effort bot to sin we will lessen the amount we do sin. And we will 

spare ourselves and others and the Lord that much more grief.

[Luther]

 

 

48 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Bear in mind John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10. "Repent!" is not so much about cleaning up our act as it is turning from unbelief in Jesus to belief.

Cleaning us up (or more precisely forgiving our sins and imputing to us the righteousness of Christ) is Christ's work. Not ours. At best all we can do

AFTER we are saved is try our best not to sin. We will daily fail anyway. But in the effort bot to sin we will lessen the amount we do sin. And we will 

spare ourselves and others and the Lord that much more grief.

Yes. That is what should happen. We should "be about our Father's business."

I think " repent" can be a precursor to the work of the Holy Spirit. I mean God does command "all men to repent"  (Acts 17:30). All of humanity is expected to turn away from sin. The world would be a better place if a conscious effort was made not to do evil, regardless of whether they are chosen to salvation or not. And it wasn't long ago when we were closer to God as a society. Now, ugh. 

 

[Who me]

On 1/1/2025 at 9:13 PM, Luther said:

And here's a very controversial verse indeed:

The problem is always context.

Here it is about the second coming, so we should understand this verse together with the coming, in his time, of Jesus.

It  a not mean that all will be saved.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Clearly say that there will be those excluded from God's presence. 

How should we understand, " God not wanting any to perish.  "

God is perfect. Perfect in justice and in mercy. We should remember he did not have to send Jesus, to have a plan of salvation.

But he has a Ted with mercy and grace, that we don’t  deserve and while he may not want, desire, people to perish he is just in Condeming all he does not save.

 

 

[Luther]

9 hours ago, Who me said:

The problem is always context.

Here it is about the second coming, so we should understand this verse together with the coming, in his time, of Jesus.

It  a not mean that all will be saved.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Clearly say that there will be those excluded from God's presence. 

How should we understand, " God not wanting any to perish.  "

God is perfect. Perfect in justice and in mercy. We should remember he did not have to send Jesus, to have a plan of salvation.

But he has a Ted with mercy and grace, that we don’t  deserve and while he may not want, desire, people to perish he is just in Condeming all he does not save.

 

 

I agree. I will go even one controversial step further to suggest that the soul of the  unsaved does not unite with it's resurrected body to suffer an eternity in a literal place of fiery torture. Several key points:

1) " fire" is symbolic for judgment.

2) the "wages ( payment) of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23), death of the soul. If the payment for sin was suffering in an eternal place of torment or  "hell", the Bible would say that. 

3) Once the new Heavens and earth begin ( immediately following Christ's second coming), "the former things are passed away"( Revelation 21:4). Nothing of the former Earth age is remembered, including sin. There will be no continuation of God's wrath because it will be satisfied on the final day of this sin- cursed earth, for God says " Behold, I make all things new" ( Revelation 21:5). 

[Whosoever]

This is what happens when one relies on his/her own oppinions rather than being inspired by the Holy Spirit.  How do denomonations get started?   Someone reads the bible, gets an idea, seperates it and builds on it with other scriptures and voilla, a Collage of pictures or thoughts taken out of context each having a blessed hope of their own and all professing to be wise.  

One denominations states that if we don't all Church up on Saturday, and Saturday being their blessed hope, we'll all go to hell.

Another denomination states that if we don't ask the Madonna to pray for us sinners, their blessed hope, then we'll all go to hell.

Yet another denomination states that if you don't believe in their blessed hope, you won't get pre-tribulized.  

Will the "REAL" blessed hope stand up please.  OH LOOK, it's JESUS.  Jesus is our Shabot, Jesus is our Mediator, Jesus is our Savior, Jesus is the ALL IN ALL, THE FIRST AND THE LAST, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS, JESUS IS OUR ADVOCATE, JESUS IS ABOVE ALL NAMES, JESUS IS LORD OVER THE EARTH, UNDER THE EARTH, AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.  Jesus overcame this word, overcame death, took the keys from Satan and sets the captives free.  WHY?

Because God isn't interested in Denominations or religions, God is interested ONLY in a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU.  Personal.  He doesn't want anyone to have faith in their religion, or denomination or order.  God doesn't dwell there.  HE DWELLS IN THE HEARTS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN AND WOMEN.  God wants your faith in Him, and not your religion.  

Jesus says "...do not stumble over me".  Don't walk over the cross to hug a religion, or an event, or what ever your fleshly blessed hope is.  

 

 

 

[Who me]

14 hours ago, Luther said:

I agree. I will go even one controversial step further to suggest that the soul of the  unsaved does not unite with it's resurrected body to suffer an eternity in a literal place of fiery torture. Several key points:

1) " fire" is symbolic for judgment.

2) the "wages ( payment) of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23), death of the soul. If the payment for sin was suffering in an eternal place of torment or  "hell", the Bible would say that. 

3) Once the new Heavens and earth begin ( immediately following Christ's second coming), "the former things are passed away"( Revelation 21:4). Nothing of the former Earth age is remembered, including sin. There will be no continuation of God's wrath because it will be satisfied on the final day of this sin- cursed earth, for God says " Behold, I make all things new" ( Revelation 21:5). 

Yes fire has a symbolic use, but it is a.so a picture of punishment, as revelation says ' those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of Life, where thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Death has a meaning of separation from  God. Adam ' died ' when he sinned, he was separated from God.

So yes the wages of sin is separation  from God. Not now in this life but in the one to come. That rules out annihilation. 

Yes God is making all things new, new in the new heaven and new earth for those who are his.

That does not included those who are not his.