" Replacement Theology"

[Retrobyter]

46 minutes ago, Luther said:

Agreed. Let me ask you this. In many places where the millenialists support their views, they pick and choose verses that generally avoid the " allegorical" language (primarily in the OT). Or they will give a literal explanation for something that is simply impossible to understand that way. 

Why do you think God used this kind of language? Do you believe there is spiritual meaning behind it? 

 

Shabbat shalom, @Luther.

Verses? You mean to say "WHOLE PASSAGES of Scripture," don't you? READ THE WHOLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE, preferably in a single sitting, if possible! It may take some time, but we all eke out as much time as we want for those things that we find important to do, and isn't God's Word important? Isn't reading God's Word important? Let it SPEAK TO YOU! Don't go trying to put words in the authors' mouths, either.

One must avoid "eisogesis," that is, reading INTO the Scriptures what one WANTS it to mean. One should be using "EXEGESIS" instead! Getting one's teaching "OUT FROM" the AUTHOR'S viewpoint! And, the human author, being God's prophet, is NOT going to contradict the true Author of Scriptures, neither is the true Author, God, going to allow His Word to be contrary to what He put in the human author's mind to write!

Could it be that those verses (and WHOLE PASSAGES of Scripture) aren't supposed to be read as "allegorical language?" Anytime one must say, "Well, this ... REALLY means that ...," one is DOOMED to failure!

Furthermore, the New Testament books do NOT contradict the Old Testament books! They work TOGETHER! The New Testament books give more detail to the Old, and the Old give the foundations for the New! They are ALL written ultimately by the SAME, UNCHANGEABLE GOD Who has unfolded His immutable truths down through time!

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @truth7t7 and you, too, @Luther.

Those of us who know that there will be future Kingdom of the Messiah, which will graduate to be a Kingdom of the Father Himself, after the first 1,000 years, simply don't neglect to accept that information! It's not just "zip - kablooey - done!" There are STAGES to His "end," which is NOT "the end," as in a true fairy tale, but is ONLY "THE BEGINNING!"

GOD DOES NOT LOSE IN "HIS BID" FOR HIS CREATION!!!

He WINS! COMPLETELY!

He will RE-CREATE this world as a "New Heaven (Sky) and a New Earth" "wherein will dwell righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1-2), and "there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;" (Revelation 22:3)

And, we don't just see this in Revelation 20-22 and 2 Peter 3, but it is also seen QUITE CLEARLY (to those who have eyes) in 1 Corinthians 15, the RESURRECTION CHAPTER: Remembering that Paul is writing about the Resurrections,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (which is a SINGULAR Greek word, even though the English translation adds an "s");
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(This matches Revelation 6:9-11:15; just Who do you think is judging the world on His  Father's behalf, and THIS WILL TAKE TIME! According to John, it will take a thousand years PLUS, for He comes BEFORE haSatan is locked away for a thousand years!) 

(2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(This matches Revelation 11:15-20:15.)

25 For he (Christ; the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Son's) feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

(This in particular matches Revelation 20:14.)

27 "For he hath put all things under his feet." (Psalm 8:6).

{But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest (revealed; obvious) that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did "put all things under him (the Son, His Christ or Messiah)."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.

(This matches Revelation 21:1-22:5.)

FURTHERMORE, we see this also within the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT), especially Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah:

Isaiah 60:1-15 (KJV)

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

9 "Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 "Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 "For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 "The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, 'The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.'

15 "Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an ETERNAL excellency, a joy of many generations."

Read the rest of Isaiah! IT is, after all, a SINGLE PROPHECY!

Ezekiel 37:11-14 (KJV)

1 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it]," saith the LORD.'"

And, it goes on from there! Read the WHOLE rest of the book! It ALL comes true!

Zechariah 14:1-21 (KJV)

1 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." 

4 And his (the Messiah's) feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light." 

8 And it shall be in that day, that living (flowing, moving, rushing) waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, "HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD"; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

All of this likewise shall be fulfilled JUST AS PROMISED! One may NOT pull a verse from here and there and expect to be understanding the Scriptures!

If I may ask, why wouldn't it be a "complete win" if Jesus does what He promises us, to take all of His children, His sheep, His chosen ones home, safe and secure in His eternal home in Heaven? The time frame for salvation is from the beginning to the end of the world. That's not a hard concept to understand. It doesn't have to take many complicated twists and turns in scripture to arrive at that conclusion either.

Oh how I wish to expound on the sinister history of Scofieldism. I encourage you to do so. I'm trying to remain positive on my posts as much as I can. Jesus Christ does win in the end. That I'm sure we will agree on. 

[Luther]

51 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @Luther.

Verses? You mean to say "WHOLE PASSAGES of Scripture," don't you? READ THE WHOLE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE, preferably in a single sitting, if possible! It may take some time, but we all eke out as much time as we want for those things that we find important to do, and isn't God's Word important? Isn't reading God's Word important? Let it SPEAK TO YOU! Don't go trying to put words in the authors' mouths, either.

One must avoid "eisogesis," that is, reading INTO the Scriptures what one WANTS it to mean. One should be using "EXEGESIS" instead! Getting one's teaching "OUT FROM" the AUTHOR'S viewpoint! And, the human author, being God's prophet, is NOT going to contradict the true Author of Scriptures, neither is the true Author, God, going to allow His Word to be contrary to what He put in the human author's mind to write!

Could it be that those verses (and WHOLE PASSAGES of Scripture) aren't supposed to be read as "allegorical language?" Anytime one must say, "Well, this ... REALLY means that ...," one is DOOMED to failure!

Furthermore, the New Testament books do NOT contradict the Old Testament books! They work TOGETHER! The New Testament books give more detail to the Old, and the Old give the foundations for the New! They are ALL written ultimately by the SAME, UNCHANGEABLE GOD Who has unfolded His immutable truths down through time!

You said: "Getting one's teaching "OUT FROM" the AUTHOR'S viewpoint!"

The author is Almighty God Himself. We are trying to understand the will of God, not the person who wrote the book!

This is exactly one of the reasons why I no longer attend  church. 

God willing, I would start a Bible study where each person involved would host a particular topic. The topic would be presented,  and you would have the week to present an argument or support for it. Then a new topic would be started at the end of the study, and so on. 

Edited February 1 by Luther
Changed a sentence

[Anne2]

21 minutes ago, Luther said:

This is exactly one of the reasons why I no longer attend  church. 

I hear you on this one. It is important to attend Church. But, I do not know where to go. So much stuff going on these days in the Church. They are accepting all kinds of immorality openly.

 

23 minutes ago, Luther said:

God willing, I would start a Bible study where each person involved would host a particular topic. The topic would be presented,  and you would have the week to present an argument or support for it. Then a new topic would be started at the end of the study, and so on. 

Do you have any outline, qualifications for topics? Or maybe even who can start a topic even? I only ask because it just seems WE ALL are so different, the importance or goal of the topics would even differ.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @truth7t7 and you, too, @Luther.

Those of us who know that there will be future Kingdom of the Messiah, which will graduate to be a Kingdom of the Father Himself, after the first 1,000 years, simply don't neglect to accept that information! It's not just "zip - kablooey - done!" There are STAGES to His "end," which is NOT "the end," as in a true fairy tale, but is ONLY "THE BEGINNING!"

GOD DOES NOT LOSE IN "HIS BID" FOR HIS CREATION!!!

He WINS! COMPLETELY!

He will RE-CREATE this world as a "New Heaven (Sky) and a New Earth" "wherein will dwell righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1-2), and "there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;" (Revelation 22:3)

And, we don't just see this in Revelation 20-22 and 2 Peter 3, but it is also seen QUITE CLEARLY (to those who have eyes) in 1 Corinthians 15, the RESURRECTION CHAPTER: Remembering that Paul is writing about the Resurrections,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (which is a SINGULAR Greek word, even though the English translation adds an "s");
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(This matches Revelation 6:9-11:15; just Who do you think is judging the world on His  Father's behalf, and THIS WILL TAKE TIME! According to John, it will take a thousand years PLUS, for He comes BEFORE haSatan is locked away for a thousand years!) 

(2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

(This matches Revelation 11:15-20:15.)

25 For he (Christ; the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Son's) feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

(This in particular matches Revelation 20:14.)

27 "For he hath put all things under his feet." (Psalm 8:6).

{But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest (revealed; obvious) that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did "put all things under him (the Son, His Christ or Messiah)."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.

(This matches Revelation 21:1-22:5.)

FURTHERMORE, we see this also within the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT), especially Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah:

Isaiah 60:1-15 (KJV)

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

9 "Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 "Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 "For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 "The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, 'The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.'

15 "Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an ETERNAL excellency, a joy of many generations."

Read the rest of Isaiah! IT is, after all, a SINGLE PROPHECY!

Ezekiel 37:11-14 (KJV)

1 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it]," saith the LORD.'"

And, it goes on from there! Read the WHOLE rest of the book! It ALL comes true!

Zechariah 14:1-21 (KJV)

1 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle." 

4 And his (the Messiah's) feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light." 

8 And it shall be in that day, that living (flowing, moving, rushing) waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, "HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD"; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

All of this likewise shall be fulfilled JUST AS PROMISED! One may NOT pull a verse from here and there and expect to be understanding the Scriptures!

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End) there won't be a millennial kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

[Luther]

27 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I hear you on this one. It is important to attend Church. But, I do not know where to go. So much stuff going on these days in the Church. They are accepting all kinds of immorality openly.

 

Do you have any outline, qualifications for topics? Or maybe even who can start a topic even? I only ask because it just seems WE ALL are so different, the importance or goal of the topics would even differ.

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't being clear. I was talking about a home Bible study. I like this format that we are on. You can really bring up any topic, assuming it's done in a respectful way. 

 I believe the meaning of " Church" is  "assembly of saints". Christians of like mind (in the sense of desiring truth) coming together. The church  "structure" we are accustomed to is not mandatory. 

Hebrews 10:23-25

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

[24]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

[25]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Over the years I have been accused of   "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" as if this was a command by God to attend a church congregation. Not so. Especially these days. 

Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Consider yourself blessed if you can meet with others of like mind. My fellowship has been mostly in this fashion. I know two people that I can have a deep discussion with.

Praying for many people to have an interest in the Bible. 

I do not believe all churches are under God's condemnation. I'm sure there are those who want a genuine connection with truth. But there is such a demonic influence today. Like you said about the immorality being so open.

 

 

 

[Anne2]

3 minutes ago, Luther said:

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't being clear. I was talking about a home Bible study. I like this format that we are on. You can really bring up any topic, assuming it's done in a respectful way. 

I didn't misunderstand you. You did fine. I was just curious how one would go about doing that. I actually took it to put myself in your shoes so to speak. I do believe I would arrange the topics for discussion. So I had no thought of a bible study here.

6 minutes ago, Luther said:

I believe the meaning of " Church" is  "assembly of saints". Christians of like mind (in the sense of desiring truth) coming together. The church  "structure" we are accustomed to is not mandatory. 

Hebrews 10:23-25

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

[24]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

[25]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Yes, this is the one I was thinking of.

 

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

Over the years I have been accused of   "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" as if this was a command by God to attend a church congregation. Not so. Especially these days. 

Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Consider yourself blessed if you can meet with others of like mind. My fellowship has been mostly in this fashion. I know two people that I can have a deep discussion with.

Praying for many people to have an interest in the Bible. 

I do not believe all churches are under God's condemnation. I'm sure there are those who want a genuine connection with truth. But there is such a demonic influence today. Like you said about the immorality being so open.

Well I have doubted myself in this area to be honest. It has not come to much from others. I am really thinking on just going and attencing, without being a member. Now this might not be approved by you but, it will be either Orthodox, catholic, Anglican (now you can see here where the immorality comes in with a reformation Church) Lutheran. Looking for roots, authority etc. It is a problem in my opinion in the non historical churches. But there are a few anglican churches that have not taken hold of the modern immorality. They are few and far between though. 

[Luther]

2 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I didn't misunderstand you. You did fine. I was just curious how one would go about doing that. I actually took it to put myself in your shoes so to speak. I do believe I would arrange the topics for discussion. So I had no thought of a bible study here.

Yes, this is the one I was thinking of.

 

Well I have doubted myself in this area to be honest. It has not come to much from others. I am really thinking on just going and attencing, without being a member. Now this might not be approved by you but, it will be either Orthodox, catholic, Anglican (now you can see here where the immorality comes in with a reformation Church) Lutheran. Looking for roots, authority etc. It is a problem in my opinion in the non historical churches. But there are a few anglican churches that have not taken hold of the modern immorality. They are few and far between though. 

I understand what you mean as far as a non historical church goes. After attending the last church in 2000, I came across ( by the grace of God) the ministry of Family Radio. While controversial to many, I learned what I believe to be sound Biblical doctrine from the founder and Bible teacher Brother Camping. These days the ministry has somewhat changed, with a more " modern" approach ( not to discourage their intent which I believe to be sincere). I like their music a lot. 

And the only churches I came across online ( not that I was seriously looking) recently was North Avenue Church in Athens, GA. I find their teaching to be solid, with a good foundation. Good teachers that I believe are blessed. Also Pastor Chuck Baldwin at Liberty fellowship. He's not so popular, however. 

But still, if I lived in Athens would I attend? I don't know. Is there a preacher out there addressing the sad state of our world and how we should speak up against it? Or do we get a general luke warm message which helps no one. 

That's what I don't like. No mandate. 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Luther said:

If I may ask, why wouldn't it be a "complete win" if Jesus does what He promises us, to take all of His children, His sheep, His chosen ones home, safe and secure in His eternal home in Heaven?

Shabbat shalom, @Luther.

That's a good question. I think the solution is that He doesn't SAY that He will "take all His children, His sheep, His chosen ones home, safe and seure in His eternal home in Heaven." Where did He say that? Don't say John 14 because He didn't say it there:

John 13:31-14:31 (KJV)

31 Therefore, when he (Judas Iscariot) was gone out, Jesus said,

"Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, 'Whither I go, ye cannot come'; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, 'That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.' 35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

36 Simon Peter said unto him,

"Lord, whither goest thou?" ("Master, where are you going?")

Jesus answered him,

"Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards."

37 Peter said unto him,

"Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake!"

38 Jesus answered him,

"Wilt thou 'lay down thy life for my sake?' Verily, verily, I say unto thee, 'The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.'

"1 LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

(Notice: He did NOT say He would be taking us to His Father's house! He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself!" Well, where will He be when He returns? Won't He be BACK ON EARTH?)

5 Thomas saith unto him,

"Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" ("Master, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the path to take?")

6 Jesus saith unto him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

8 Philip saith unto him,

"Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us." ("Master, show us the Father, and that'll be enough.")

9 Jesus saith unto him,

"Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], 'Shew us the Father'? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that (because) I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: OR else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name (on my authority), that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.

19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. (This is the Resurrection to come.) 20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 "These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, 'I go away, and come [again] unto you.' If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, 'I go unto the Father': for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence."

MUCH LATER, Yochanan ("John") said,

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

So, God's "house," the New Jerusalem - His "Bedouin tent," the Greek word "σκηνὴ " or "skeenee," also used in the plural for AVraham's "tents" in Hebrews 11:9 - will be coming down TO US, landing (because it "comes ... out of the sky") upon the New Earth!

So, did He say it anywhere else? See, the problem is that there IS NO "Heaven" to which one can go! The "third heaven" of 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is CHRONOLOGICALLY "third," NOT SPATIALLY "third!" This can be seen from Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13. The word "ouranos" means the "sky":

G3772 οὐρανός ouranós, oo-ran-os'; perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
—air, heaven(-ly), sky.

The "first heaven" was the sky before the Flood. The destruction of the Flood even greatly affected the earth's sky, as much as it affected the earth's ground. 

The "second heaven" is the current sky slated for destruction in the Fire that will come at the end of the 1,000 years of Satan's incarceration. 

After the Fire, the "third heaven" will be the sky above the New Earth, the "new heaven," and it will be eternal. 

7 hours ago, Luther said:

The time frame for salvation is from the beginning to the end of the world. That's not a hard concept to understand. It doesn't have to take many complicated twists and turns in scripture to arrive at that conclusion either.

There's another word that is used without understanding. The word "salvation" is the wrong word for God's justification of an individual. The word "salvation" means "deliverance" or a "rescue," and in all the prophecies, that word refers to the "deliverance" or "rescue" of NATIONAL ISRAEL!

7 hours ago, Luther said:

Oh how I wish to expound on the sinister history of Scofieldism. I encourage you to do so. I'm trying to remain positive on my posts as much as I can. Jesus Christ does win in the end. That I'm sure we will agree on. 

Absolutely! The issue is WHERE will He "win in the end." He won't "win" in some ethereal place called "Heaven"; He will "win" UPON THIS EARTH (remade, of course),  and He will reign upon it forever, as was said in the Davidic Covenant of 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 and in the words said about Yeeshuwa`s life by the messenger Gabriel to Mary before His conception! "He will reign FROM DAVID'S THRONE forever, and of His Kingdom there will be NO END!"

[Luther]

21 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @Luther.

That's a good question. I think the solution is that He doesn't SAY that He will "take all His children, His sheep, His chosen ones home, safe and seure in His eternal home in Heaven." Where did He say that? Don't say John 14 because He didn't say it there:

John 13:31-14:31 (KJV)

31 Therefore, when he (Judas Iscariot) was gone out, Jesus said,

"Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, 'Whither I go, ye cannot come'; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, 'That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.' 35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

36 Simon Peter said unto him,

"Lord, whither goest thou?" ("Master, where are you going?")

Jesus answered him,

"Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards."

37 Peter said unto him,

"Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake!"

38 Jesus answered him,

"Wilt thou 'lay down thy life for my sake?' Verily, verily, I say unto thee, 'The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.'

"1 LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

(Notice: He did NOT say He would be taking us to His Father's house! He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself!" Well, where will He be when He returns? Won't He be BACK ON EARTH?)

5 Thomas saith unto him,

"Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" ("Master, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the path to take?")

6 Jesus saith unto him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

8 Philip saith unto him,

"Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us." ("Master, show us the Father, and that'll be enough.")

9 Jesus saith unto him,

"Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], 'Shew us the Father'? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that (because) I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: OR else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name (on my authority), that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.

19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. (This is the Resurrection to come.) 20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot,

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said unto him,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 "These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, 'I go away, and come [again] unto you.' If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, 'I go unto the Father': for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence."

MUCH LATER, Yochanan ("John") said,

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

So, God's "house," the New Jerusalem - His "Bedouin tent," the Greek word "σκηνὴ " or "skeenee," also used in the plural for AVraham's "tents" in Hebrews 11:9 - will be coming down TO US, landing (because it "comes ... out of the sky") upon the New Earth!

So, did He say it anywhere else? See, the problem is that there IS NO "Heaven" to which one can go! The "third heaven" of 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is CHRONOLOGICALLY "third," NOT SPATIALLY "third!" This can be seen from Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13. The word "ouranos" means the "sky":

G3772 οὐρανός ouranós, oo-ran-os'; perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
—air, heaven(-ly), sky.

The "first heaven" was the sky before the Flood. The destruction of the Flood even greatly affected the earth's sky, as much as it affected the earth's ground. 

The "second heaven" is the current sky slated for destruction in the Fire that will come at the end of the 1,000 years of Satan's incarceration. 

After the Fire, the "third heaven" will be the sky above the New Earth, the "new heaven," and it will be eternal. 

There's another word that is used without understanding. The word "salvation" is the wrong word for God's justification of an individual. The word "salvation" means "deliverance" or a "rescue," and in all the prophecies, that word refers to the "deliverance" or "rescue" of NATIONAL ISRAEL!

Absolutely! The issue is WHERE will He "win in the end." He won't "win" in some ethereal place called "Heaven"; He will "win" UPON THIS EARTH (remade, of course),  and He will reign upon it forever, as was said in the Davidic Covenant of 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 and in the words said about Yeeshuwa`s life by the messenger Gabriel to Mary before His conception! "He will reign FROM DAVID'S THRONE forever, and of His Kingdom there will be NO END!"

David is not greater than Jesus Christ, for he is not God. Jesus reigns from His throne. " David" is symbolic for Christ just as " Abraham " is symbolic for God. 

I don't know where you are coming from. All I know is NOTHING from the Old Covenant has any meaning or relevance with the Triune God and His people, Christians. We are in a NEW COVENANT, which spiritually was and is the covenant of salvation that God was going to implement for His people through Jesus Christ. Not David, Not Abraham, Not Israel. These are objects in the rear view mirror. 

You have what appears to be an obsession with the Old Covenant, in that you want to continue it's relevance somehow by intermingling the language almost as if the language of promise is being cast aside. I don't know how else to say it. 

Every time a Christian speaks of the promises and work of the Holy Spirit ON THIS SIDE OF THE CROSS, You always want to take us back. I've been conversing with you long enough to realize something is wrong here. 

Serious Question : Are you actually Jewish? Nothing wrong with that of course, but everything is always a rebuttal or re-structuring of what others proclaim in our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. It's like you're not happy with Jesus Christ alone. Something from the Old Testament has to be added. 

What's up with that? 

Edited February 2 by Luther
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