This is my understanding to why grace cannot be earned. I have given an illustration to explain my thoughts..

[BlindEyes]

Just know this, if you are not followed by signs, wonders and miracles outside of magic practice..then there is something wrong with your walk with God. All believers and I mean ALL OF THEM, they are followed by the very presence of God. He is inside them and working His wonder working power. With the Holy Spirit comes power. If you are a believer you can do the impossible. Again, if you are not followed by the power of God you are not a child of God therefore you are not born of God.

[BlindEyes]

24 minutes ago, Fran C said:

IF you're planning on being perfect, then thoughts will be a part of being perfect.  I don't believe Jesus had any bad thoughts and you want to be perfect as He was perfect.

Also, I asked you a question to which you didn't reply...this happens often on these threads:

Why did John write his first letter...se chapters 1 and the beginning of chapter 2.

Also...what do you think John meant in 1 John 3:9?

You posted some verse in your reply to me....Do you want me to exegete them?  We're not having a debate about anything so I don't understand why you're posting scripture.  Sorry 'bout that.

Are you asking about John 1 and 2 or 1 John 1 and 2?

As for 1 John 3:9 I cannot say unless I become born of God.

 

As for perfection this is what I'm talking about:

 

 

Philippians 3:12-15

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

◄ 5048. teleioó ►

Strong's Lexicon teleioó: To complete, to perfect, to accomplish, to bring to an end. Original Word: τελειόω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: teleioó Pronunciation: te-lei-O-o Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o) Definition: To complete, to perfect, to accomplish, to bring to an end. Meaning: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected. Word Origin: From the Greek word τέλειος (teleios), meaning "complete" or "perfect." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The Hebrew equivalent often associated with the concept of completion or perfection is תָּמַם (tāmam), Strong's Hebrew 8552, which means to be complete, finished, or perfect. Usage: The verb "teleioó" is used in the New Testament to convey the idea of bringing something to its intended goal or state of completion. It often implies a process of maturation or perfection, whether in a moral, spiritual, or functional sense. The term can refer to the fulfillment of a task, the completion of a journey, or the perfection of character. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of perfection or completion was highly valued, often associated with achieving one's purpose or reaching an ideal state. In the Jewish context, the idea of perfection was linked to fulfilling the law and living a life pleasing to God. The New Testament writers, particularly Paul and the author of Hebrews, use "teleioó" to describe the spiritual maturity and completeness found in Christ.

 

Edited January 11 by BlindEyes

[Fran C]

3 minutes ago, BlindEyes said:

Are you asking about John 1 and 2 or 1 John 1 and 2?

As for 1 John 3:9 I cannot say unless I become born of God.

 

As for perfection this is what I'm talking about:

 

 

Philippians 3:12-15

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

◄ 5048. teleioó ►

Strong's Lexicon teleioó: To complete, to perfect, to accomplish, to bring to an end. Original Word: τελειόω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: teleioó Pronunciation: te-lei-O-o Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o) Definition: To complete, to perfect, to accomplish, to bring to an end. Meaning: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected. Word Origin: From the Greek word τέλειος (teleios), meaning "complete" or "perfect." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The Hebrew equivalent often associated with the concept of completion or perfection is תָּמַם (tāmam), Strong's Hebrew 8552, which means to be complete, finished, or perfect. Usage: The verb "teleioó" is used in the New Testament to convey the idea of bringing something to its intended goal or state of completion. It often implies a process of maturation or perfection, whether in a moral, spiritual, or functional sense. The term can refer to the fulfillment of a task, the completion of a journey, or the perfection of character. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of perfection or completion was highly valued, often associated with achieving one's purpose or reaching an ideal state. In the Jewish context, the idea of perfection was linked to fulfilling the law and living a life pleasing to God. The New Testament writers, particularly Paul and the author of Hebrews, use "teleioó" to describe the spiritual maturity and completeness found in Christ.

 

I was just signing off BE.

My goodness, don't you think you're already born again!

I mean 1 John 1:5-10

   5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 

6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 

7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

and

1 John 2:1-14

 1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

      3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

      7Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

      12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

and also:

1 John 3:8-9

 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 

One last question and then I'll reply in the morning:

What does holy mean?

 

[BlindEyes]

Here's the other. I try to speak in a way that is helpful to everyone in the audience.

 

◄ 5046. teleios ►

Strong's Lexicon teleios: Perfect, complete, mature, full-grown Original Word: τέλειος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: teleios Pronunciation: TEH-lei-os Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os) Definition: Perfect, complete, mature, full-grown Meaning: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character. Word Origin: Derived from the Greek word τέλος (telos), meaning "end" or "completion." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - תָּמִים (tamiym) - Strong's Hebrew 8549, meaning "complete, whole, entire, sound." Usage: In the New Testament, "teleios" is used to describe something that has reached its end or purpose, signifying completeness or maturity. It often refers to spiritual maturity or moral perfection, indicating a state of being fully developed in character and faith. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of "teleios" was associated with achieving one's purpose or reaching a state of maturity. Philosophers like Aristotle used the term to describe the ultimate goal or end of a process. In the Jewish context, the idea of perfection was linked to living in accordance with God's laws and achieving spiritual maturity.

[BlindEyes]

12 minutes ago, Fran C said:

I was just signing off BE.

My goodness, don't you think you're already born again!

 

One last question and then I'll reply in the morning:

What does holy mean?

 

I am not born again or I would have power and authority. Doing the works of Christ and greater. The promises of God would be my reality. 

 

As for holy and holiness:

◄ 38. hagiasmos ►

Strong's Lexicon hagiasmos: Sanctification, holiness, consecration Original Word: ἁγιασμός Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: hagiasmos Pronunciation: hah-ghee-as-MOS Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-as-mos') Definition: Sanctification, holiness, consecration Meaning: the process of making or becoming holy, set apart, sanctification, holiness, consecration. Word Origin: Derived from the Greek verb ἁγιάζω (hagiazō), meaning "to sanctify" or "to make holy." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - קֹדֶשׁ (qodesh) - Strong's Hebrew 6944: Refers to holiness or sacredness, often used in the context of things set apart for God. - קָדוֹשׁ (qadosh) - Strong's Hebrew 6918: Meaning holy or sacred, used to describe God, people, or objects dedicated to God. Usage: Hagiasmos refers to the process of making something holy or set apart for God's purposes. In the New Testament, it often describes the spiritual growth and moral purity expected of believers as they are transformed into the likeness of Christ. It encompasses both the initial act of being set apart at salvation and the ongoing process of spiritual maturation and moral purity. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of holiness was often associated with religious rituals and the setting apart of objects or people for divine purposes. In the Jewish tradition, holiness was central to the covenant relationship with God, involving both ritual purity and ethical living. The early Christian understanding of hagiasmos built on these traditions, emphasizing a life dedicated to God through faith in Jesus Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit.   ----------   ◄ 40. hagios ► Strong's Lexicon hagios: Holy, sacred, set apart Original Word: ἅγιος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: hagios Pronunciation: HA-gee-os Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os) Definition: Holy, sacred, set apart Meaning: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. Word Origin: Derived from the same root as ἅγος (hagos), meaning "an awful thing," which is related to the concept of reverence and awe. Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H6918 (קָדוֹשׁ, qadosh): Holy, sacred - H6944 (קֹדֶשׁ, qodesh): Holiness, sacredness Usage: The Greek word "hagios" primarily denotes something that is set apart for a special purpose, often in a religious or spiritual context. In the New Testament, it is frequently used to describe God, the Holy Spirit, and believers who are set apart for God's purposes. It conveys the idea of moral purity, sanctity, and consecration. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of holiness was often associated with temples, deities, and religious rituals. However, the biblical understanding of "hagios" extends beyond ritual purity to encompass ethical and moral dimensions. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew equivalent often referred to the holiness of God and His people, emphasizing separation from sin and dedication to God.

 

 

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, BlindEyes said:

I believe there are still some sins that will prevent someone from inheriting eternal life like murder and hatred

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. There is no provision in scripture justifying the commission of any sin. Nevertheless, the blood of Jesus' is sufficient to atone for all sin.

 

2 hours ago, BlindEyes said:

They must resist and mortify these sins in order to go on to God's kingdom

The reason we need a Savior is because it is not possible to attain either righteousness, or holiness, by our own efforts. 

I think a more efficient strategy is to apply our focus and effort towards seeking God - and thereby allowing His grace to sever us from the weaknesses of our flesh.

Galatians 5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

2 hours ago, BlindEyes said:

They must resist and mortify these sins in order to go on to God's kingdom

God's desire is to partner with us in every endeavor. With regards to us overcoming sin, our responsibility in the partnership is to "resist" temptation - and on those occasions when we fall, to immediately return to God for mercy and grace.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

By this grace, we who have been perfected by His blood, are progressively sanctified.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

This applies to all sin - not just the sins we designate to be more grievous.

 

2 hours ago, BlindEyes said:

As for holiness, without holiness no one shall see the Lord

Do you think "holiness" can be attained by corrupted humans apart from the grace of God?

 

 

[BlindEyes]

20 minutes ago, Fran C said:

I mean 1 John 1:5-10

   5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 

6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 

7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

I don't want to lie but this is my understanding. I believe "have no sin," and "have not sinned,"..I believe it possibly deals with past sins and confessing them.  The whole, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, these sins should be confessed..

As for future sins, which are also possible, like Peter committed in Galatians 2, they should be confessed as well.

 

What about verse 9? It mentions forgiving sin then it mentions cleansing us from all unrighteousness. Are they just saying the same thing twice or are these two events different? If different what would the truth be concerning being cleansed of all unrighteousness?

 

The following is John Wesley. I will post a teacher that may know more than me.

 

Verse 8

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we say — Any child of man, before his blood has cleansed us.

We have no sin — To be cleansed from, instead of confessing our sins, 1 John 1:9, the truth is not in us - Neither in our mouth nor in our heart.

Verse 9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But if with a penitent and believing heart, we confess our sins, he is faithful - Because he had promised this blessing, by the unanimous voice of all his prophets.

Just — Surely then he will punish: no; for this very reason he will pardon. This may seem strange; but upon the evangelical principle of atonement and redemption, it is undoubtedly true; because, when the debt is paid, or the purchase made, it is the part of equity to cancel the bond, and consign over the purchased possession.

Both to forgive us our sins — To take away all the guilt of them.

And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness — To purify our souls from every kind and every degree of it.

Verse 10

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Yet still we are to retain, even to our lives’ end, a deep sense of our past sins. Still if we say, we have not sinned, we make him a liar - Who saith, all have sinned.

And his word is not in us — We do not receive it; we give it no place in our hearts.

 

 

Quote

 

1 John 2:1-14

 1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

      3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

      7Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

      12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

 

I believe there is a difference between the carnal babes in Christ and those who have perfect love and become mature over time, the perfected. Those who resist temptation and have been tried and passed the test.
 

Luke 6:40

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

 

Quote

 

1 John 3:8-9

 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 

 

I am not born again myself so I cannot answer this. The whole cannot sin confuses me because Peter sinned. Maybe this "born of God" is more than just being baptized in the Holy Spirit? I don't know..

 

[BlindEyes]

On 1/11/2025 at 7:48 PM, Tristen said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. There is no provision in scripture justifying the commission of any sin. Nevertheless, the blood of Jesus' is sufficient to atone for all sin.

 

The reason we need a Savior is because it is not possible to attain either righteousness, or holiness, by our own efforts. 

I think a more efficient strategy is to apply our focus and effort towards seeking God - and thereby allowing His grace to sever us from the weaknesses of our flesh.

Galatians 5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

God's desire is to partner with us in every endeavor. With regards to us overcoming sin, our responsibility in the partnership is to "resist" temptation - and on those occasions when we fall, to immediately return to God for mercy and grace.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

By this grace, we who have been perfected by His blood, are progressively sanctified.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

This applies to all sin - not just the sins we designate to be more grievous.

 

Do you think "holiness" can be attained by corrupted humans apart from the grace of God?

 

 

I give no permission to sin, for all sin is wrong, but I will say this, some sins are greater than others and some lead to death and some do not. If a sin is said not to inherit the kingdom then I believe that sin will not inherit the kingdom. What do I mean by that? If they commit a sin that does not inherit the kingdom but confess and repent of that sin then God can forgive them. If they commit a sin that does not inherit the kingdom and never repent of it but die commiting those sins, I highly doubt they will enter the kingdom.  I agree with most of what you have said. As for holiness, only this is possible by God's will. For is it not up to those who will it, or those who run the race but up to God who shows mercy. The things God wants He will bring to pass in us by His mercy. I do not believe humans can do much without God making things happen for them. Anything apart from faith is sin and faith is what pleases God. By faith the promises of God can come true and in those God has started a work, He will finish that work, if He so desires, for God does as He pleases.

 

 

Edited January 13 by BlindEyes

[BlindEyes]

James 2:24 KJV

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

James 2:24 NIV

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, BlindEyes said:

Like I said before, works cannot remove guilt. However there are sins that do not inherit the kingdom. There are sins that inherit the lake of fire instead. God does not and cannot lie.

verse please