Unravelling Revelation

[truth7t7]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That's correct, the words (Thousand Years) used in Revelation 20:4-6 is doing nothing more than explain that the event seen isn't literal earthly time as millennialist claim, it's in the Lord's spiritual realm of eternity where one day is a (Zillion Years) no literal earthly time time

Edited March 3 by truth7t7

[Deborah_]

Revelation 20:11-21:8

After the battle of Armageddon, human history will be wound up with the Last Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15). When the Judge takes His seat, His presence will be so terrifying that nothing in this creation will be able to cope with it! The universe will collapse into nothingness, and the only Reality left will be God. Then the entire human race will come face to face with Him - and with the eternal consequences of the way we have lived our lives (Hebrews 9:27). No-one will be exempt from this final accounting. The lost, the long-forgotten, the unnoticed and the unknown, and even those whose bodies were completely destroyed - all will be brought before the Throne. (II Corinthians 5:10) God knows - and remembers - every thought, word and deed; every secret will be exposed and judged. And so His judgement will be totally comprehensive and absolutely fair. No-one will have grounds for appeal! Because all have sinned, all will deserve condemnation; only those whose names are in God’s Book of Life will be spared from destruction. And when all evil has been removed from God’s presence, Death itself will be put to death (I Corinthians 15:26). Hell will engulf all those who have taken the devil’s side; but those who are known to God will live for ever. When there is no more death, the world as we know it really will have come to an end.

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth…” (Revelation 21:1) Like the other sections of the book, the sixth vision ends with a glimpse of the world to come - but this time the curtain is drawn back a little further and we can see something of the new creation. ‘New’ means ‘renewed’, not ‘brand new’; there will be a degree of continuity between the world we know and the world to come. However, there will also be many profound differences. To the Jews, the sea was a hostile environment, chaotic and violent, constantly threatening to overflow the land - and it was where the Beast came from. (see Revelation 13:1) But in the new world, all such threats will have vanished completely.

But John’s eyes are quickly drawn to the most important (and most wonderful) feature of the new earth. There will no longer be any distinction between heaven and earth, because earth will finally become what it was originally meant to be: the dwelling-place of God! This is our final destination, the place prepared for us: a city where we will truly be at home (Hebrews 11:13,16). The presence of God will be close as never before - the reality of which Solomon’s temple was just a symbol (see I Kings 8:13). And Death - the shadow that currently blights the whole of human existence - will be abolished! Here at last there will be complete healing of body and mind, with even the bitterest of memories erased.

The life that we have now is life in the “Shadowlands”; in comparison, the life to come will be life in full, glorious technicolour! And this is the continuation of a process of renewal that begins in each of us at our conversion (II Corinthians 5:17) . For God the Creator is also the Re-creator. He is the Source of life, and it is ours for the taking; all we have to do is acknowledge our need. “To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.” (Revelation 21:6) Although the invitation is free, its acceptance will involve costly struggle; for the world will do its utmost to prevent us from claiming our inheritance. If we persevere right to the end, our reward is certain (Romans 8:17). But if we don’t love and fear God enough to remain loyal to the end, we may lose it all. For the one thing that will not feature in the new earth is sin in all its many forms - and so there will be no room there for unrepentant sinners. Those who refuse to bow the knee to their Creator will discover that the independence they demand is destruction in Hell…

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

Revelation 20:11-21:8

After the battle of Armageddon, human history will be wound up with the Last Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15). When the Judge takes His seat, His presence will be so terrifying that nothing in this creation will be able to cope with it! The universe will collapse into nothingness, and the only Reality left will be God. Then the entire human race will come face to face with Him - and with the eternal consequences of the way we have lived our lives (Hebrews 9:27). No-one will be exempt from this final accounting. The lost, the long-forgotten, the unnoticed and the unknown, and even those whose bodies were completely destroyed - all will be brought before the Throne. (II Corinthians 5:10) God knows - and remembers - every thought, word and deed; every secret will be exposed and judged. And so His judgement will be totally comprehensive and absolutely fair. No-one will have grounds for appeal! Because all have sinned, all will deserve condemnation; only those whose names are in God’s Book of Life will be spared from destruction. And when all evil has been removed from God’s presence, Death itself will be put to death (I Corinthians 15:26). Hell will engulf all those who have taken the devil’s side; but those who are known to God will live for ever. When there is no more death, the world as we know it really will have come to an end.

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth…” (Revelation 21:1) Like the other sections of the book, the sixth vision ends with a glimpse of the world to come - but this time the curtain is drawn back a little further and we can see something of the new creation. ‘New’ means ‘renewed’, not ‘brand new’; there will be a degree of continuity between the world we know and the world to come. However, there will also be many profound differences. To the Jews, the sea was a hostile environment, chaotic and violent, constantly threatening to overflow the land - and it was where the Beast came from. (see Revelation 13:1) But in the new world, all such threats will have vanished completely.

But John’s eyes are quickly drawn to the most important (and most wonderful) feature of the new earth. There will no longer be any distinction between heaven and earth, because earth will finally become what it was originally meant to be: the dwelling-place of God! This is our final destination, the place prepared for us: a city where we will truly be at home (Hebrews 11:13,16). The presence of God will be close as never before - the reality of which Solomon’s temple was just a symbol (see I Kings 8:13). And Death - the shadow that currently blights the whole of human existence - will be abolished! Here at last there will be complete healing of body and mind, with even the bitterest of memories erased.

The life that we have now is life in the “Shadowlands”; in comparison, the life to come will be life in full, glorious technicolour! And this is the continuation of a process of renewal that begins in each of us at our conversion (II Corinthians 5:17) . For God the Creator is also the Re-creator. He is the Source of life, and it is ours for the taking; all we have to do is acknowledge our need. “To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.” (Revelation 21:6) Although the invitation is free, its acceptance will involve costly struggle; for the world will do its utmost to prevent us from claiming our inheritance. If we persevere right to the end, our reward is certain (Romans 8:17). But if we don’t love and fear God enough to remain loyal to the end, we may lose it all. For the one thing that will not feature in the new earth is sin in all its many forms - and so there will be no room there for unrepentant sinners. Those who refuse to bow the knee to their Creator will discover that the independence they demand is destruction in Hell…

I'd like to compliment you on your thread. Through thick and thin you said your piece without getting emotional about the conflicts. Revelation is no easy book, but you had the courage to expound. Here is my take on Chapter 20 -off the cuff.

The theme of the Bible is God's glory reflected by men in His likeness first subduing, and then ruling the earth, sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). Man's attempt to usurp this Kingdom is foiled at Babel. Except for about 880 years, the earth was ruled by men hostile to God - Gentiles. Matthew starts His Gospel with a new King - Jesus, and so we expect to find the new King and His co-kings to have prevailed. This they do so by Chapter 11:15.

But co-kingship with Jesus is dependent not only on faith, but on a willingness to pay the price 1. of setting oneself aside for the things of God, 2. proving that one is a good steward of God's resources. That is, one must cooperate at ones expense to be QUALIFIED. Paul, teacher to the Gentile converts shows this arduous road in Philippians 3:9-14. There is a special resurrection ("ex-anastasis" - literally "resurrection out of the resurrection") that must be ATTAINED to. The price is your everything.

Jumping forward to Revelation 20 we see the named changed to "FIRST resurrection". "Protos" in the Greek means either 1. FIRST in time, or, 2. FIRST in rank or importance. The men and women who ATTAIN to this resurrection literally lost their heads to gain another HEAD. They fall into three categories: 
1. the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus
2. the souls of them that had been beheaded for the word of God,
3. the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

It is at once apparent that if Abel sacrificed according to God's Word, then these three categories encompass the faithful during the 6,000 years since Adam.

The 1,000 years must be literal. It is plainly stated six times in six verses - unprecedented in the whole of scripture. But its literal value comes from Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4. God calls it a "future Rest". And in Hebrews ths REST is defined as the time that God's people occupy the Land. But not only is this "REST" defined there but close examination of of the first REST confirms the literal 1,000 years. In Genesis 1 the first REST is NOT defined by the "evening and the morning". It's omission is glaring. Rather, the REST is defined by the "DAY" within Adam died. If we interpret scripture with scripture, Adam failed to be in place for one "DAY", and Israel were ejected from the Good Land in less than 1 "day" of 1,000 years.

Magog:
At some time or another during accurate study of the Bible it will dawn on the student that God tests EVERYTHING. Even our Lord Jesus was tested almost daily, but notably in the Wilderness and in Gethsemane. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says that every man who came from Adam will be resurrected. The following 4 verses give the sequence. First Christ, then "those who are His WHEN HE COMES". That would be the Church and Israel. Then He must reign until all enemies are subdued. The last enemy is death and it is defeated when there are no more dead or deaths.

Now, if the Kingdom is to be tested, it is only fair if it be under the conditions of the old earth. That is, summer and winter, harvest time and the nations, having not been resurrected can still die. But what is more important is that not being resurrected yet, they can procreate. The conditions of the Millennium ar very favorable, so the earth's population with increase exponentially.

ALL BORN TO THE NATIONS IN THE MILLENNIUM WILL HAVE NOT KNOWN SATAN'S RULE. CHRIST'S KINGDOM MUST BE TESTED. This is God's purpose with man. It is His showpiece. It must withstand the worst. So Satan is released for a short season at the end of the Millennium and the Nations, still in the flesh (which is at enmity with God, are prime fodder for Satan's attempt once more to gain Jerusalem. Led by Gog and Magog, a huge rebellion takes place at Harmon-Gog. The slaughter is greater than Armageddon because God's honor and Kingdom are called into question. Thus, the weapon of choice is FIRE FROM HEAVEN unlike the SWORD at Armageddon.

Hades is filled to the brim with the dead. Unlike Armageddon were the vultures gorge themselves, the bodies of the rebellious are buried to stop the process of a curse (by Law - Ezek.39:12). It takes 7 months. Now all enemies are subdued except death. Hades is full. The demons still occupy the sea, and the angels of Tartarus must be consigned to the Lake of Fire.

God calls an assize. No Christians and no Jews are present. They were resurrected 1,000 years earlier. God now tests the old earth with His face alone. Satan's rebellion polluted heaven, and man's rebellion polluted the earth. God does not patch things up. He makes them new. The earth and heaven are purged - as the earth was by the flood. Nothing of the past except one thing remain on the surface. The Lamb. Truly, with such a hoard of dead, it would need God's effortless weapon against death.

The last Adam BECAME the life-giving Spirit - 1st Cor.15:45. All men are resurrected.

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

That's correct, the words (Thousand Years) used in Revelation 20:4-6 is doing nothing more than explain that the event seen isn't literal earthly time as millennialist claim, it's in the Lord's spiritual realm of eternity where one day is a (Zillion Years) no literal earthly time time

Well, we are all entitled to our exegesis. 

[truth7t7]

On 3/3/2025 at 11:14 AM, Deborah_ said:

Hell will engulf all those who have taken the devil’s side; but those who are known to God will live for ever. When there is no more death, the world as we know it really will have come to an end.

Death and Hell will be cast into the lake of fire which is eternal

Revelation 20:14-15KJV

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[truth7t7]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:52 PM, AdHoc said:

The 1,000 years must be literal. It is plainly stated six times in six verses 

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[truth7t7]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:52 PM, AdHoc said:

1st Corinthians 15:22 says that every man who came from Adam will be resurrected. The following 4 verses give the sequence. First Christ, then "those who are His WHEN HE COMES". That would be the Church and Israel. Then He must reign until all enemies are subdued. The last enemy is death and it is defeated when there are no more dead or deaths.

It's amazing how you "Disregard" the words (Then Cometh The End) because it destroys your teaching of a literal millennial kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ, there isn't a kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below and you know this, Jesus returns (Then Cometh The End)

You wander off into the last enemy to be destroyed is death as if it's "After" the false claim of a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, yet you fail to post the complete context of 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 "Why"?

Verses 52-54 clearly shows at the "Last Trump" earthly mortal bodies obtain immortality at the resurrection, at this time as verse 54 clearly teaches (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) the (Last Enemy Death) is "Destroyed" (Then Cometh The End) and yes this is at the future coming of Jesus Christ, your Millennial Kingdom on this earth doesn't exist in scripture

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 52-54KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Edited March 6 by truth7t7

[Deborah_]

On 3/3/2025 at 11:52 PM, AdHoc said:

I'd like to compliment you on your thread. Through thick and thin you said your piece without getting emotional about the conflicts. Revelation is no easy book, but you had the courage to expound.

Thankyou.

There are so many different interpretations of Revelation! 

The "symbolic" interpretation is one that's common in the UK but rarely gets a mention on forums. I'm just trying to redress the balance. The conflicts are rarely addressed to me, so I feel able to ignore them. We may all turn out to be partly right, in the end.

 

[Deborah_]

Revelation 21:9-22:21

The centrepiece of the new creation is the Bride! John is taken to the top of a mountain, to ‘view the land’ from afar, as Moses did (see Deuteronomy 34:1-4) — and what he sees takes his breath away. For New Jerusalem and the Church are one and the same; the city isn’t so much the place where we shall live, as the community that we are! And whereas the Church now is weak, blemished and scruffy, John sees her as she will be: dazzlingly glorious, and humming with life. Indeed, we wouldn’t recognise ourselves; the Church as pictured here is no longer shabby and sinful, but shining with the glory of God Himself! (see Revelation 4:3) The city has a high wall for demarcation and for security, and many gates, for access. And there will be no more false teachers; the city rests firmly on the foundation of the true Gospel preached by the apostles (Ephesians 2:19,20).

New Jerusalem is vast and spacious - but don’t get bogged down in the measurements, because all of them are (significantly) multiples of 12. It is God’s people in their totality, old Israel and new Israel, combined together and brought to perfection. In shape, it’s a perfect cube – a new Most Holy Place, the dwelling-place of God Himself, no longer a ‘no-go’ area but somewhere where God’s people can live, unafraid, in His presence. As befits the city of the great King, she is made of the most beautiful and costly materials imaginable, and is very colourful! Every surface is adorned with precious stones, like those borne on the high priest’s breastpiece (see Exodus 28:17-21). And thus she surpasses even Solomon’s Jerusalem (see I Kings 10:27) in beauty and splendour!

The focal point of Old Jerusalem was the Temple, where God ‘lived’. But there will be no temple in New Jerusalem because the entire city is the holy dwelling-place of God, and is filled with His glory. No longer will we be flickering lampstands (Revelation 1:20); the glory of God’s presence in our midst will be so bright that the sun itself will become superfluous! The inhabitants of the city will be a vast, teeming, multiethnic crowd. Like the Queen of Sheba (see I Kings 10:1,2), a never-ending stream of people from all over the world will beat a path to its gates in order to proclaim their allegiance to the Lamb. In a very real sense, New Jerusalem will be the centre of the earth! (Micah 4:1) And God will keep ‘open house’; no-one will be turned away. (Isaiah 60:11) There will never be any need to lock the gates, because darkness (signifying ignorance and godlessness) will have been banished! Instead, New Jerusalem will incorporate the very best of human culture and invention (Revelation 21:26) - everything that is truly excellent, and everything that reflects the beauty, truth and love of God. Nothing that is of real and lasting value will be lost. The only thing missing will be sin! Access will be restricted to those who are known to God and are registered citizens of His Kingdom (Psalm 87:5,6). And so New Jerusalem will be a truly pure and holy city (Isaiah 52:1).

What will life in New Jerusalem be like? The prophet Ezekiel had been given a vision of God’s life-giving Spirit flowing out from His presence like a river to renew the world (see Ezekiel 47:1-12). This is the river that John sees flowing through the city, making it a place where every need is satisfied, so that its inhabitants lack nothing. The city is a new Eden, a source of life and healing for the whole world - because all will have permanent access to the tree of life. Our own attempts to re-create a paradise on earth were doomed to failure (see Genesis 3:17-19). But when God has undone the curse that made all human endeavour ultimately futile (Ecclesiastes 12:8), the human race can flourish as He originally intended. We need not fear monotony; there will be plenty for us to do!

In the present age, God’s full glory has always been veiled (see Exodus 33:20). To be able to behold His face is something that His people have always yearned for (Psalm 17:15); and in New Jerusalem, that longing will finally be satisfied (I John 3:2). Each one of us will be acknowledged by God as His own - which is the ultimate blessing.  And what we have believed and accepted in faith, we shall finally experience in reality. We shall worship God, and reign with Him over the new creation, in everlasting day and overwhelming glory.

[AdHoc]

On 3/6/2025 at 5:32 PM, Deborah_ said:

Thankyou.

There are so many different interpretations of Revelation! 

The "symbolic" interpretation is one that's common in the UK but rarely gets a mention on forums. I'm just trying to redress the balance. The conflicts are rarely addressed to me, so I feel able to ignore them. We may all turn out to be partly right, in the end.

 

In Revelation 1:1 the Lord said He would show His servant in "signs". That is, we can expect real things to be given in the manner of a sign. The same word is used twice in John Chapter 2. The first, in verse 11 was the changing of water into wine and the second, in verse 18 was the change of of God's House from a physical temple to His Body. Now, if we consider all the facts of the changing of the water, a lovely but sad picture comes into sharp focus - that of Israel's future recovery. 

Israel reject their Mesiah-Groom and so for two days they must be chastised (Hos.6.2). On the third day of 1,000-year days they are visited by their Groom, but He is but a guest now.

In Judges 9 Wine "cheereth God and man". But the Fig (Judah) is but sweet and God is not connected to it. Their garment (Leaves) is their works but Law cannot justify.

This thought of the Law is strengthened by the Pots that, "purify the Jews". That it is for men is shown in 6 waterpots - the day of man's creation. But it might show something else - the purifying of the Law makes "empty" - and this especially for the "government" of Israel.

Jesus refuses His mother as we see after the unforgivable sin is committed in Matthew 12. But He does not refuse Wine on the Third day - the day of Israel's recovery (Hos.6:2) - their general resurrection (Ezek.37)

The wine is the "better wine"(Lk.5:39) because Israel's recovery introduces the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 - that of Law. The New Covenant is ratified by Christ's blood on Golgotha but put into action when the Two Houses of Israel become one (Jer.31:31-33). Israel is "cheered" because the appearance of their Messiah after 2,ooo years (two days) has caused "mourning" Besides the finished wine our Lord Jesus changes some 150 gallons/650 liters of water into "good wine"

But besides the tragedy of missing their Groom, Israel must drink "old wine". In Luke Chapter 5 this signifies Law. Their wine is changed from water, showing the blessings of Law. The Believers drinks from the "True Vine" (John Chapter 15) - the one that the Father desires. Israel will show "Terrestrial glory" being the sand of the sea shore. The Church, being stars will show God's "Celestial glory" in the Millennium.

Verse 11 shews this all to be a "sign" (semeion - Gk.)

I think that if we approached Revelation like this, every literal thing literal, and every "sign" interpreted with scripture alone, we would all be a lot closer to each other - and the truth.