Christ's kingdom will never be physically on this earth

[Locust]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Some of you must be going for the longest post ever on Worthy.

Such a waste of time to get something wrong

[DeighAnn]

On 4/4/2025 at 8:53 AM, Luther said:

His kingdom of darkness has ruled over this sin- cursed earth. I agree that the  "two witnesses" ( body of Christ) in effect inflicted the " deadly wound" to his kingdom by preaching the gospel.  "Wounded", as in the spiritual battle of souls. He lost a great many after the Cross, and the wound continues until:

Let's see if I have this right...all the words like this I am to just disregard as having no literal truth what so ever, even though it is put forth that way.  







1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The Witnesses Killed and Raised

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.




So, ARE WE to be as sheep to the wolves, or does fire come out of our mouths and devour our enemies?  

Are we clothed in 'sackcloth' that is just not visible to anyone?  When do we put it on?  

Why is the number of days given as 1260, if it is not in fact even close to that number and why give a number so VERY close to the 42 months?

When did this 'beast' rise up?  While Jesus walked the earth or before?  Wasn't Rome the ruler of the world at the time?  Who were/are the other heads?  Which ONE of the heads was wounded? 


Why is the time shortened 'or else no flesh shall be saved' if in fact 'the body of Christ' is killed and lies dead in the street...and WHO would that leave 'alive and remaining' to be 'changed' at Christs return?  

[Anne2]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

These are in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant:

 

Was the Abrahamic covenant void of the promised (seed) king and kingdom, as that promised to David

Everlasting covenant...

1 Chr 16:15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

Were the promises to David by the same seed to Abraham?

Ps 105:8 ¶  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: {lot: Heb. cord }

A covenant of mercy, compassion

De 7:9  Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
De 7:12  Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: {if: Heb. because }
De 13:17  And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 
2Ki 13:23  And the LORD was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.

Edited April 5 by Anne2

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but this was taken out of its full context and misunderstood. The passage is from the Resurrection Chapter, and just about everything in this chapter is about Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ RISEN from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the RESURRECTION of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But every man in his own order [i.e., three significant resurrections]:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular, happened in the First Century);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. (Still yet to come.)
24 (2) Then [cometh] THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For HE MUST REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "he (God) hath put all things under his (Christ's or the Messiah's) feet."

[But when he saith "all things are put under [him (the Christ or Messiah, the Son of God)," it is] manifest (obvious) that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did "put all things under him."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There are two significant Resurrections that are yet to occur: The Resurrection at the Second Coming of our Lord, and The Resurrection "at the end" of the age, which is what John was talking about in Revelation 20:1-15:

Revelation 20:1-15 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him A THOUSAND YEARS, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till THE THOUSAND YEARS should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until THE THOUSAND YEARS were finished.) This (pointing back to verse 4) [is] the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him A THOUSAND YEARS. 

7 And when THE THOUSAND YEARS are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city (Jerusalem): and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN IT; AND DEATH AND HELL DELIVERED UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN THEM: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The "thousand years" are about the chaining of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy"). It will start when haSatan is chained, and will be finished when he is released.

So, the progression is ...
1. The First Resurrection (which occurs during the Second Coming),
2. the 1000-year chaining of haSatan in the bottomless pit begins,
3. the first 1,000 years of His reign while haSatan is chained while He shall "REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet,"
4. the release of haSatan from the bottomless pit at the end of the 1,000 years,
5. the Fire falls upon the army of haSatan.
6. the Second Resurrection (which occurs after the Fire falls and just before the Great White Throne Judgment),
7. the Great White Throne Judgment itself,
8. the Sentencing of those found guilty to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur (or the Lake of Burning Sulfur, which is molten and burns a deep blue color)
9. God remakes the earth into the New Earth, and the sky into the New Sky,
10. the New Jerusalem (with the "many rooms" or "mansions") descends to the New Earth and lands upon it.

Hope you don't mind me using the post above to show the difference in our beliefs, if so, let me know and I will certainly change it...



1. The First Resurrection DOES NOT occur during the Second Coming as it is 
a TYPE of 'resurrection' and not a specific 'Day' of resurrection (unless you are one of 'the dead' who did not have their name written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.  The resurrection OF THE DEAD does come on a specific day, the day when Christ returns and Satan gets chained and tossed into the abyss for 1000 years).

The FIRST type resurrection took place long ago and is only for those who won't have to stand at the GWTJ to face the 2nd death, and would include
Enoch
Elijah
Moses
Noah
Abraham
along with all those found perfect and/or in faith 'under the law', so no penalty of death imposed.  True, their natural body dies the death of Adam (flesh and blood death) but they never see DEATH and/or the PLACE of THE DEAD.  Their flesh and blood bodies are buried, while they in their spiritual bodies, live on having been made alive in Christ.  They never descended to hell, not in spirit, not in spiritual body, not in anyway, but instead they ASCENDED having been transformed or transfigured.

First resurrections continue and under the New Covenant, at the end of the FIRST ADVENT many more first resurrections take place, the FIRST ONE to be raised up from amongst THE DEAD/the place of the dead is CHRIST JESUS and not only Him but the rest of the firstfruits, both of Israel and of all the other nations, all those to whom HE preached THE GOOD NEWS, and upon hearing it they BELIEVED, and so ascended when He did, never to face the 2nd death... 

the ransom having been paid, the release effected...

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

From that point on, 'first' resurrections will continue to take place until THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS returns at the 2nd Advent and the ALIVE AND REMAINING are changed. 

WHO is going to be resurrected when Christ returns?  THE DEAD/THE DEAD IN CHRIST which would be THE NOT YET SAVED/THE NOT BORN OF THE SPIRIT/THE NOT MADE ALIVE/THOSE WHO WERE DECEIVED/THOSE WHO FELL BACK/CHOSE THE WAYS OF THE WORLD, ETC.

21Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 


Who isn't mentioned as being resurrected when He returns?  The LIVING, those who have been saved from death, those who 'never die'/who never went to the place of the dead, nor is there any mention of any of their SPIRITUAL BODIES 'left behind' being resurrected for the alive in Christ.  Why not? Because they ALREADY followed Him, they knew the way, they knew the LIFE, the way to the place He went to prepare for them, 'the mansion', and He comes to them and to the Father in Heaven brings them and since they are ALREADY in spiritual bodies BEFORE EVEN LEAVING HEAVEN, having been raised in glory and power IN LIKE MANNER AS HIM and having already stood at the judgment seat of Christ, they will be returning with Him in His army to sit upon thrones ON EARTH, not to get 'some body' from the corruption of the corrupt earth.


So, at the 2nd Advent, once the alive and remaining have been changed, THERE will be no MORE FIRST RESURRECTIONS. 

That is when
2. the 1000-year chaining of haSatan in the bottomless pit begins,
3. the first 1,000 years of His reign while haSatan is chained while He shall "REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet,"
4. the release of haSatan from the bottomless pit at the end of the 1,000 years,
5. the Fire falls upon the army of haSatan.

then
7. the Great White Throne Judgment itself,
where THE DEAD who were resurrected at Christs return, aka THE DEAD IN CHRIST, will now face the GWTJ and the 2nd death. 


11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


NOW COMES the time of the FINAL resurrection...
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Are Christians to be judged ACCORDING TO WORKS or is it of faith?   


9. God REFRESHES the earth into the New Earth, and the HEAVEN into the New HEAVEN,
10. the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth and lands upon it.



What is GODS WILL?  That ALL come to repentance.  If 'the dead' weren't resurrected for the Lords Day, they couldn't get their names put into the book of life through their works.  All those who died never having heard the words of GOD would never have a chance to come to repentance. 







"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Revelation 17:8 KJV


"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12 KJV





24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the …
 

[Luther]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Let's see if I have this right...all the words like this I am to just disregard as having no literal truth what so ever, even though it is put forth that way.  







1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The Witnesses Killed and Raised

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.




So, ARE WE to be as sheep to the wolves, or does fire come out of our mouths and devour our enemies?  

Are we clothed in 'sackcloth' that is just not visible to anyone?  When do we put it on?  

Why is the number of days given as 1260, if it is not in fact even close to that number and why give a number so VERY close to the 42 months?

When did this 'beast' rise up?  While Jesus walked the earth or before?  Wasn't Rome the ruler of the world at the time?  Who were/are the other heads?  Which ONE of the heads was wounded? 


Why is the time shortened 'or else no flesh shall be saved' if in fact 'the body of Christ' is killed and lies dead in the street...and WHO would that leave 'alive and remaining' to be 'changed' at Christs return?  

You said: " So, ARE WE to be as sheep to the wolves, or does fire come out of our mouths and devour our enemies?"

I see the whole Bible as a spiritual book. It is filled with the " deep things of God". 

Do I completely understand all the spiritual things talked about in Revelation 11:3-6? No. But I can see this time period for the two witnesses as being the NT church age. Simply because the court outside the temple in v.2 is the N.T. church. And in v7 when their testimony is finished, I know it is the end of the church age immediately followed by the great tribulation, which is described from v.7 to v. 10. 

In v.11 to v.14   I believe this is the end of the G.T. with the end of the world immediately following, which gives the impression that it is the " hour of God's judgement", where several things are taking place. The last event to occur is Christ coming on the clouds of glory. 

I can't explain all the language in great detail, but I have made comparisons to other verses pertaining to the same time, whether in Revelation, Matthew or Daniel. There are patterns for sure. If we are going in the right direction, we can easily build upon our foundation. 

[Luther]

On 4/4/2025 at 10:20 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Luther.

This is nonsense, of course. I understand why someone would take this point of view; however, the prophetic Scriptures are plain. He SHALL reign upon this earth, and not in some "church," either!

Fair warning: This post is going to be Scripture intensive, posting several passages of Scripture together at one time, because they WORK together.

Consider:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel [Gavriy'Eel or "Gabriel" = "God is my strength"] said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God! 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS' (Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall save"). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST: and the LORD God shall give unto him THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

The magi ("wisemen") inadvertently announced the Messiah's birth to Herod the Great when they asked,

Matthew 2:1-2 (KJV)

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying,

"Where is he that is born KING OF THE JEWS? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship (to bend the knee to) him."

These are in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that [is] in thine heart; for the LORD [is] with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt THOU build ME an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in [any] house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all [the places] wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [men] that [are] in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that HE will make THEE an house.

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit (be twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (and this happened at the cross) 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Many believers ("Christians") make this claim about Luke 17:20-21, but they fail to see that the word "you" in verse 21 is the PLURAL word "ὑμῶν," not the singular "σοί." "Humoon" is the locative of "humeis" meaning "ye" or "you," a group of people, not just a single person. This is information that is LOST when one gives up the King James Version. While it's not as well-known anymore, the "ye's" and "you's" (and "your's" and "yours's") in the English of the KJV are PLURAL; the "thee's" and "thou's" (and "thy's" and "thine's") are SINGULAR, second-person words in number.

Therefore, in this particular case, the word ἐντὸς or "entos" means "AMONG the GROUP." And, guess who was "among them?" The MESSIAH or "the ANOINTED of the LORD," Yeeshuwa`, same as were Sha'uwl ("Saul"), David, and Shlomoh ("Solomon"), the One anointed to be the King of the Jews and the King of Israel, was among them! And where the King is, there is also the Kingdom! That's why AT THAT TIME, the Kingdom didn't have to come with pomp and circumstance! HE WAS ALREADY THERE!

Oops! Sorry, but this is not correct! Look carefully at 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (a singular word) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING. 
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (the Son of God's) feet. {But when he saith "all things" are "put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted (is the exception to the all things), which did "put all things under him."| 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now, here's where it takes a little bit of logic:  IF the Messiah (the Christ) is the LORD'S Anointed to be King of Israel (and that's what the word means), then ALL of those who were born to the lines of Israel are "those who belong to the Messiah!" Furthermore, WE who are Gentile believers are GRAFFED INTO the Messiah's "Olive Tree!" We are included WITH the Jews - the children of Yhuwdaah ("Judah") - because the Messiah Himself is a Jew! Through Him, we become a PART of God's Kingdom, over whom God the Father will reign through His Anointed One, Yeeshuwa`. It's VERY short-sighted, self-centered, egotistical, and audacious to think that we're all who will constitute His Kingdom! Just who do we think we are?! Doesn't one think that Yeeshuwa` HIMSELF will determine those who "belong to Him, as the LORD'S Messiah" ot "the LORD'S Anointed?"

Right, there's not "two kingdoms" in that way; however, one should not succumb to MORE nonsense! Whose Kingdom was it at the start?! It wasn't of the Gentiles (the nations); it was of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! They are LITERALLY the children and grandchildren (however many "greats" are added) of the MAN called Yisraa'eel ("Israel")! His name, based upon the Hebrew word "sar," means "he-[is]-a-prince of-God," just as a "Jew" is a "Yhuwdiy" or "one-from-[the-tribe-of]-Yhuwdaah" or "Judah."

ALL THE SAME, there ARE two Kingdoms, found within the parables of our Lord as described in Matthew 13:

 

Yes, one Kingdom. No, not "since the beginning of time." When "men began to call upon the name of the LORD," they were calling THEMSELVES with names constructed from the name or title of the LORD!

"The LORD" in all caps was used in the KJV to translate the Hebrew word "YHWH," which God used to convey His name to Moses. It was frequently followed by the word for "God," the Royal Plural word "'Elohiym." "Lord" with normal capitalization was often used to translate "'Adonaay" which means "my-exalted-Lord" or "my-exalted-foundation-layer," as in "he who lays the foundation of a city." So, in Genesis, when the translator of the KJV found "YHWH 'Elohiym," he would write "the LORD God."

This practice was altered when the two words translated "Lord" and "LORD" were used together. It would sound redundant to say "Lord LORD." So, the word "God" was used in all caps (or in capitalized miniscule letters) as "GOD." So, in the book of Ezekiel, for example, one will find "'Adonaay YHWH" translated as "Lord GOD."

In Genesis 4:26, men were beginning to tack on the name of God ("YAH") or the word "God" ("'El ") onto their names. Names like "Mehujael" and "Methusael" and "Mahalaleel."

Names that, for us, end in "-iah" or "-jah" have the name of God ("YAH") embedded within their meanings. These include "Elijah," "Zechariah," and "Zephaniah."

Names that end in "-el" have the Hebrew word for "God" ("'Elohiym" or "'El " singular for short) embedded within their meanings. These include "Daniel," "Joel," and "Ezekiel."

That's what was going on. They weren't "getting saved," as I've heard some teach.

To be "raptured" doesn't mean or imply that we're going to be "taken to Heaven." Since "heaven" means "sky," we go THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies" - to where the Messiah wants us to go WHEN HE GETS BACK! He shall send out His messengers ("aggeloi") to gather us to help Him with taking back His Land, the Land of Israel.

However, we're going to have SUCH A HUGE learning curve to overcome, that we read in the prophecies,

Isaiah 63:1-19 KJV

1 "Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth (the ground)."

7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, [and] the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. 8 For he said,

"Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie":

so he was their Saviour. 9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.

11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying],

"Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him? 12 That led [them] by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? 13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, [that] they should not stumble?"

14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. 15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where [is] thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 16 Doubtless thou [art] our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from everlasting. 17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, [and] hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. 18 The people of thy holiness have possessed [it] but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary. 19 We are [thine]: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

HaHar Tsiyown (The Mountain of-Zion) is the mountain range upon which Jerusalem is built. THAT is where the Messiah shall be installed as Israel's King, not in some fictional "Heaven."

These are quotations from Psalm 2:7 and 2 Samuel 7:14 found in Hebrews 1:5. They are both prophecies about the coming Messiah.

THIS prophecy is SEVERELY misunderstood! It's found in Psalm 45, and there are multiple changes in persons to whom the writer is speaking. Here's the Psalm in its entirety:

Psalm 45:1-17 (KJV)

1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.]]

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue [is] the pen of a ready writer.

[Speaking to the King:]

2 "Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. 3 Gird thy sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. 4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. 5 Thine arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee."

[Speaking to God:]

6 "THY THRONE, O GOD, [IS] FOR EVER AND EVER: THE SCEPTRE OF THY KINGDOM [IS] A RIGHT SCEPTRE."

[Speaking to the King ABOUT His God:]

7 "Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments [smell] of myrrh, and aloes, [and] cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters [were] among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir."

[Speaking to the Queen:]

10 "Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he [is] thy Lord; and worship thou him."

[Description of the Queen:]

12 And the daughter of Tyre [shall be there] with a gift; [even] the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter [is] all glorious within: her clothing [is] of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. 15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

[God speaks to the King:]

16 "Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth. 17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever."

It's confusion to think that verses 6 and 7 are talking to the same Person. The author of Hebrews quoted a passage from this psalm that had NO verse numbers at the time. Certain sentences or phrases were more memorial than others; so, the writer quoted a familiar passage to lead into the following sentence. It was certainly more memorable to recognize that YHWH GOD HIMSELF is the REAL King of Israel; therefore, it's HIS throne and HIS Kingdom. David recognized this fact; the physical King is GOD'S Representative! And, Yeeshuwa` basically said the same thing: "I do always those things which please the Father." (John 8:29). "I and my Father are one" (much as a man and a woman are one in marriage, John 10:30). "He that hath seen me hath seen my Father also." (John 14:9). "My judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30).

There is but one Kingdom, but it is for ALL those who belong to the Messiah! And, it IS for this world! THIS is where He will reign, first for 1,000 years in this age, and then forever in the ages to come!

Whoever the writer of the "recommended book" is, he doesn't know what he's talking about. The MESSIAH, "Christ" in Greek, is a JEWISH Messiah! He is One who is ANOINTED by God to be ISRAEL'S King!

There's no such thing as an "ENTITY" called the "church," particularly not the "Capital C Church," as Moody's Janet Parshall is known to say. The "church" is simply a gathering of people, a "called-out" assembly, even as the town assembly of Ephesus was in Acts 19. The word "church" actually comes from the ADDITIONAL Greek word "kuriokon" which means "of the Lord." Specifically, it was an "ekkeesia kurikon." an "assembly of-the-Lord." There's nothing special about a "gathering" or an "assembly." What made them special was that they were all believers that Yeeshuwa` was (and is) the Messiah of the LORD God! (1 John 5:1). But WITHIN the Messiah, "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile." (Romans 3:22). Outside of the Messiah, there's still a difference:

Romans 3:1-3 (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?

Many who are antisemitic "Christians in name only" ("Chrinos") would like to say, "None," at this point, but Paul continues...

2 MUCH EVERY WAY: chiefly, because that unto them were committed THE ORACLES (SPOKEN WORDS) OF GOD. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Sorry, but this was taken out of its full context and misunderstood. The passage is from the Resurrection Chapter, and just about everything in this chapter is about Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ RISEN from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the RESURRECTION of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But every man in his own order [i.e., three significant resurrections]:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular, happened in the First Century);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. (Still yet to come.)
24 (2) Then [cometh] THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For HE MUST REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "he (God) hath put all things under his (Christ's or the Messiah's) feet."

[But when he saith "all things are put under [him (the Christ or Messiah, the Son of God)," it is] manifest (obvious) that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did "put all things under him."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There are two significant Resurrections that are yet to occur: The Resurrection at the Second Coming of our Lord, and The Resurrection "at the end" of the age, which is what John was talking about in Revelation 20:1-15:

Revelation 20:1-15 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him A THOUSAND YEARS, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till THE THOUSAND YEARS should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until THE THOUSAND YEARS were finished.) This (pointing back to verse 4) [is] the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him A THOUSAND YEARS. 

7 And when THE THOUSAND YEARS are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city (Jerusalem): and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN IT; AND DEATH AND HELL DELIVERED UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN THEM: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The "thousand years" are about the chaining of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy"). It will start when haSatan is chained, and will be finished when he is released.

So, the progression is ...
1. The First Resurrection (which occurs during the Second Coming),
2. the 1000-year chaining of haSatan in the bottomless pit begins,
3. the first 1,000 years of His reign while haSatan is chained while He shall "REIGN, till he hath put all enemies under his feet,"
4. the release of haSatan from the bottomless pit at the end of the 1,000 years,
5. the Fire falls upon the army of haSatan.
6. the Second Resurrection (which occurs after the Fire falls and just before the Great White Throne Judgment),
7. the Great White Throne Judgment itself,
8. the Sentencing of those found guilty to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur (or the Lake of Burning Sulfur, which is molten and burns a deep blue color)
9. God remakes the earth into the New Earth, and the sky into the New Sky,
10. the New Jerusalem (with the "many rooms" or "mansions") descends to the New Earth and lands upon it.

I'll deal with the rest of this  later.

The kingdom of God is made up of Christians. Those who have become born of the Spirit of God. No one else. 

[Locust]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

the two witnesses

 amusing to hear people talk about the'' two witnesses ''. they dont have a clue who they are or even why there is two of them. its the fact that its said there's two is the important thing.  

[Locust]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

This is nonsense, of course. I understand why someone would take this point of view; however, the prophetic Scriptures are plain. He SHALL reign upon this earth, and not in some "church," either!

i see you are trying to put Jesus on earth . apparently in one spot to rule over the entire earth.  from heaven he see's the entire earth with 144000 helping him  

[Diaste]

Greetings!

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

 

Nowhere does God say He has two kingdoms, one for Christians and one for a future group of  people in a politically acquired state called Israel. No scripture like that exists. Anyone who believes that is following after a false doctrine. 

Is this an argument that exists out there? Never heard this before right now.

 

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

ONE KINGDOM. You must understand that the kingdom of God ( in Jesus Christ) has been in formation since the beginning of time, since men began " to call upon the name of the LORD "  (Genesis 4:26). 

The churches are being deceived by the children of the devil who want their own kingdom on this earth without Jesus Christ, the One they fear the most. They have gone to great lengths to steal the wonderful promises found in the OT regarding all in Christ, a temple being built by His "lively stones", and place themselves there....of course when all the Christians are " raptured". 

Sure. I think. 

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

( Jesus is only setting up ONE THRONE, in heaven)

This must the conclusion, yes?

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

 

(There is one kingdom, for Christians, not of this world):

I assume neither the kingdom or Christians are of this world. yes?

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

If you are fighting for your kingdom to be set up on this earth, not only is there zero  Biblical support for that, it certainly would not be a kingdom from  God. If you are deceiving many to support you for that cause, that's even worse. 

Interesting.

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

Below is an excerpt from a book I highly recommend:

"The Bible: a literal futurist hermeneutic assessed

It has been shown that the development of a literal and futurist reading of Scripture and, in particular, the argument that Old Testament references to Israel apply to contemporary Jews and the State of Israel rather than the church, is directly attributable to Irving, Darby and those who attended the Albury and Powerscourt conferences of the 1820s and 1830s. These were given particular expression in Darby's dispensational scheme and then codified and accorded virtually canonical status in the Scofield Reference Bible. Sandeen observes that dis-pensationalism has 'a frozen biblical text in which every word was supported by the same weight of divine authority', 107 Clarence Bass goes further, insisting:

 

No part of historic Christian doctrine supports this radical distinction between church and kingdom. To be sure they are not identical; but Dispensationalism has added the idea that the kingdom was to be a restoration of Israel, not a consummation of the church."

I'm always a bit suspicious of scholarly works. I'm a stickler for proper definitions. One should not interchange concepts and pretend they are equal, nor omit ideas critical to understanding. 

The problem is; if one is not of Israel, one is not in Christ. There is no 'church' that exists apart and distinct from true Israel, the Israel of God. This idea of lumping together national Israel, the Jews, and Israel, and then creating an ever widening gulf between that false narrative and the entity called 'the Christian church', is in my mind a subtle and deeply ingrained deception.

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

Can't you see? Paul went to the jews to get them out of the synagogues and into the kingdom of God ( body of Christ). Did he say to them, "Don't worry, Christ will set up a kingdom on this sin cursed earth so your future people who reject my Savior will have a thousand years to get right with Him?" 

Where is such a thing even implied in the canon? The religious sector of the nation of Israel desires an earthly kingdom, and they will get it. I see nowhere in scripture implying there is a 1000 year reign to 'get right with Jesus' exclusively for some ultra religious, Middle eastern peoples.

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

Today is the day of salvation. 

Fact is there will be an earthly kingdom set up in which Christ rules for 1000 years with a select group of His close friends. 

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's pretty clear the ones who faced the beast, and did not succumb to it's pressure, live and reign with Jesus for a millennium. 

Whatever you want to label this group, Jews, Christians, Israel, the elect; it's clear from the testimony of Rev 20 there is a group living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

You question where this takes place.

Rev 19:17-21 places Jesus on earth defeating the beast, the false prophet and their armies which followed them. There isn't a direct statement changing the location. In Rev 20:1-3 the angel comes down from heaven and Satan is bound for 1000 years so he cannot deceive the nations until the end of the millennium. This is on earth, the nations are not in heaven, or anywhere else, but on the earth. 

Rev 20:7-10 is also on earth and is the end of the millennium. A vast army marches across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounds the city. A city called beloved, and also the camp of the saints.

Here we have a city that appears to be 1000 years old, housing the saints, and Satan has mustered a fighting force, marching to assail the city. So, however one is to define the saints or the beloved city, there is a city on earth at the end of a 1000 year period of time, in which saints dwell, and is about to be besieged by the forces of darkness.

None of Rev 20:1-10 takes place anywhere but the ground of the earth. The location Rev 20:11-15 could be disputed but as of right now, with the information I have, that possibly takes place on earth also. 

To the argument you made previously: 

On 3/6/2025 at 6:31 PM, Luther said:

Did he say to them, "Don't worry, Christ will set up a kingdom on this sin cursed earth so your future people who reject my Savior will have a thousand years to get right with Him?" 

It seems something like the above will take place. I don't think your position is one of two kingdoms of Jesus being set up, it's more like no kingdom will be set up on earth for anyone, and certainly not a 1000 year kingdom where people 'get right with Him'.

However:

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech 14

Here there is kingdom of the Lord on earth, the nations existing and ruled over with rules and consequences. Do you think there is planting and harvest and rain in heaven? Egypt isn't in heaven, it's on earth. Time doesn't exist in heaven, but here we have years, which implies a need to count using basic units, like days. 

From all that, there is plenty of evidence of a lasting, earthly kingdom over which Jesus and His people rule.

I would like to understand which position you hold:

"There is never going to be an earthly kingdom over which Christ rules."

"There isn't going to be a kingdom of Christians on earth, or heaven, and one where the Jews pay penance."

"There isn't an earthy kingdom or a heavenly one where anyone lives and reigns with Christ."

Or something else?

[Luther]

9 hours ago, Locust said:

i see you are trying to put Jesus on earth . apparently in one spot to rule over the entire earth.  from heaven he see's the entire earth with 144000 helping him  

Jesus is on earth by extension of His people who reign with Him. We are waiting for the precise moment when our Lord delivers up the kingdom ( the body of Christ) to the Father, to live for ever in a new Heavens and earth which we cannot fathom at this point. 

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 KJV

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I do believe that we are very close. A great sign is how the extreme wickedness of our day is literally glorified or ignored.