the Resurrection

[AdHoc]

17 minutes ago, Locust said:

where is this lake  of fire that even death could be put there?

If you agree, I'll wait till be have thrashed out the first point. Also, its nearly 3 a.m. here - long past an old man's bed-time. I'm turning in now, so you have time to consider. Good night brother.

[Locust]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You refer, no doubt, to John 3; 

10 ... Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Before I give my understanding, to save me an hour of writing if you do not agree with scripture (for then we have no basis for communion) can we agree on the following:
1. Scripture, in plain language, says that Enoch was "translated" and Elijah was taken to heaven? (Heb.11:5, 2nd Ki.2:1, 11)
2. Jesus said "we" in verse 11 above
3. Verse 13 implies that Jesus had already ascended
4. Verse 13 implies that he was then (present tense) in heaven, though He was on earth talking to Nicodemus

Thanks.

What, then, were the “heavens” into which Elijah was taken by the windstorm? These were the physical heavens, the atmosphere, the “expanse,” also called “Heaven” . A windstorm could exist only in this atmospheric expanse, not in the spirit realm of gods heavenly presence. Elijah was carried up out of Elisha’s sight by the windstorm.

The Bible does not say that Elijah died on that occasion. As a matter of fact, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet at least five years later, apparently over in the territory of Judah. The Bible tells us: “Eventually there came a writing to [Jehoram, king of Judah] from Elijah the prophet.” This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his wrong, idolatrous course.  A further evidence that Elijah did not die at the time of being taken into the “heavens” is that his servant and successor Elisha did not then hold the customary period of mourning for his master.

Edited March 12 by Locust

[Locust]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

If you agree, I'll wait till be have thrashed out the first point. Also, its nearly 3 a.m. here - long past an old man's bed-time. I'm turning in now, so you have time to consider. Good night brother.

• A symbolic place that “burns with fire and sulfur,” also described as “the second death.” Unrepentant sinners, the Devil, and even death and the Grave (or, Hades) are thrown into it. The inclusion of a spirit creature and also of death and Hades, all of which cannot be affected by fire, indicates that this lake is a symbol, not of everlasting torment, but of everlasting destruction.—

[Frits]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

His body was laid in a tomb and His SOUL went to Hades.

At the end of 1Pet.3:18 it says that the Lord Jesus Christ was "quickened by the Spirit".

Verse 19 then continues:
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (Hadēs), so "in the Spirit".

The apostle does not limit himself to His soul there. Moreover, the Lord Jesus Christ also preaches to "the spirits" in prison, and again Peter does not speak of souls.

How could the Lord Jesus Christ preach to the spirits in Hadēs, if the spirits of these dead people went to God?

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Locust said:

What, then, were the “heavens” into which Elijah was taken by the windstorm? These were the physical heavens, the atmosphere, the “expanse,” also called “Heaven” . A windstorm could exist only in this atmospheric expanse, not in the spirit realm of gods heavenly presence. Elijah was carried up out of Elisha’s sight by the windstorm.

The Bible does not say that Elijah died on that occasion. As a matter of fact, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet at least five years later, apparently over in the territory of Judah. The Bible tells us: “Eventually there came a writing to [Jehoram, king of Judah] from Elijah the prophet.” This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his wrong, idolatrous course.  A further evidence that Elijah did not die at the time of being taken into the “heavens” is that his servant and successor Elisha did not then hold the customary period of mourning for his master.

With the greatest respect and in the most friendly way, may I now point out that you didn't answer my questions. You launched into an explanation why heaven was not heaven, and then answered a matter that I didn't even address - whether Elijah is still live or not. This, of course, is your right and freedom, and I understand that you cannot allow heaven to be heaven because you have taken a position on John 3. But I hope that you understand that if you take heaven to be heaven in one verses and not the other nobody can have a meaningful discussion. The Hebrew word used by the Holy Spirit is consistent throughout the Old Testament, whether it is where the thunder comes from, or where the Most High God dwells.

For the second part of my request, the awkward grammar of John 3:10-13, you ignored. It is our duty, if two verses seem to clash, to reconcile them, not change the meaning of scripture or its words. I may not judge, but I may respectfully withdraw on the basis that we do not have common ground for our discussion.

[Locust]

35 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

With the greatest respect and in the most friendly way, may I now point out that you didn't answer my questions. You launched into an explanation why heaven was not heaven, and then answered a matter that I didn't even address - whether Elijah is still live or not. This, of course, is your right and freedom, and I understand that you cannot allow heaven to be heaven because you have taken a position on John 3. But I hope that you understand that if you take heaven to be heaven in one verses and not the other nobody can have a meaningful discussion. The Hebrew word used by the Holy Spirit is consistent throughout the Old Testament, whether it is where the thunder comes from, or where the Most High God dwells.

For the second part of my request, the awkward grammar of John 3:10-13, you ignored. It is our duty, if two verses seem to clash, to reconcile them, not change the meaning of scripture or its words. I may not judge, but I may respectfully withdraw on the basis that we do not have common ground for our discussion.

there is the heaven where God is and there is the heavens where we see the birds fly and clouds float by . Elijah  stayed with in earth's heavens.

[Locust]

3 hours ago, Frits said:

At the end of 1Pet.3:18 it says that the Lord Jesus Christ was "quickened by the Spirit".

Verse 19 then continues:
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (Hadēs), so "in the Spirit".

The apostle does not limit himself to His soul there. Moreover, the Lord Jesus Christ also preaches to "the spirits" in prison, and again Peter does not speak of souls.

How could the Lord Jesus Christ preach to the spirits in Hadēs, if the spirits of these dead people went to God?

 Peter writes that this occurred after Jesus was “made alive in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 3:18, 19) he did not go any where when  he was in the  tomb . it was after those 3 days when he was then spirit that he could do anything.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Frits said:

At the end of 1Pet.3:18 it says that the Lord Jesus Christ was "quickened by the Spirit".

Verse 19 then continues:
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (Hadēs), so "in the Spirit".

The apostle does not limit himself to His soul there. Moreover, the Lord Jesus Christ also preaches to "the spirits" in prison, and again Peter does not speak of souls.

How could the Lord Jesus Christ preach to the spirits in Hadēs, if the spirits of these dead people went to God?

You have made some mistakes. The subject of 1st Peter is the Holy Spirit. "By which" refers to the Spirit, not Christ. If we were to write it less elegantly, we would write the verse, and bring in 2nd Peter 2:5, like this;

"Christ slain, but made alive by the Spirit, BY WHICH (SPIRIT) Noah (inspired by the SPIRIT) preached to the spirits who are now in prison." 

Hades is for the SOULS of Men. Tartaroo is the correct word, not "hell" in 2nd Peter 2:4 and the subject is angels - which are spirits (Ps-104:4)

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartaroo and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Our Lord Jesus rested in Hades (Rev.14:13). He did not preach to anybody. The Holy Spirit raised Him up - the same Holy Spirit that inspired Noah to preach while he built the Ark. Part of his preaching was directed at the angels who broke with God Who did not allow them to marry. These angels are now in Tartaroo which seems to share the same "Abyss" to Hades. But they are two different places.

Hope this helps.

 

[AdHoc]

46 minutes ago, Locust said:

 Peter writes that this occurred after Jesus was “made alive in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 3:18, 19) he did not go any where when  he was in the  tomb . it was after those 3 days when he was then spirit that he could do anything.

I'm afraid not. On the evening after His resurrection, when He appeared to the 11, He emphatically said He was NO SPIRIT. 

 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk.24:39).

[Locust]

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I'm afraid not. On the evening after His resurrection, when He appeared to the 11, He emphatically said He was NO SPIRIT. 

 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk.24:39).

1 Corinthians 15:50

he had to be spirit to go to heaven