Be Careful, Church: The ‘Theological’ Arguments Against Israel Are Shamefully Wrong

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, Jaydub said:

Your Title also suggests that I am shamefully wrong 

Let me ask you a few questions, in the first generation after the cross, from the cross until the destruction of Israel. Who were Gods people? was it those persecuting or the persecuted, was it  those who believed Jesus the messiah or those that rejected him? There were believing Jews and there were unbelieving Jews, all belonged to the nation of Israel, but which are the ones cut away and no longer Gods people, the un believers. This was not something new. In genesis in exodus and in Deuteronomy Gods people would be cut of for certain sin

 Exodus 12:19

For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel.

Here sin causes those who are Israeli to be cut off from Gods people. Israel being cut off from Israel. They are no longer able to be a part of temple worship, there is no longer atonement for their sin. They were cut off, They are Israeli, but not belonging to Gods family

When we are grafted in, we are grafted in with believing Israel, unbelievers have been cut off. As in the times of old, there are two Israel's, those under the atonement and those who are not, forgiven and not forgiven, saved and not saved, unbelievers and believers. Believing Jews are called Christians. We are told this fist happened in Antioch. What do we call the people in the Church? Christians, Jewish believers and gentile believers, These are Gods  chosen people, those of faith, those who believe. Who are the remnant today? Believing Jews.   Believing gentiles have been grafted in with them, not replacing them, but joined together with them in the belief of our messiah. Making us one family Gods chosen people. Israel

 

 

 

Many did so in ignorance, like Paul...

[Jaydub]

5 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Many did so in ignorance, like Paul...

That may be true, but look at Paul, he called himself the worst of all sinners  1st timothy 1:15. Why do you suppose that is. He also said of himself

Philippians 3

4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[a] blameless.

Paul being a pharisee knew the scriptures and should have seen, his father was also a pharisee, he knew the scriptures. It is why, I believe he considers himself the worst of all sinners, because, with his knowledge of the scriptures he should have seen the truth, but he was blinded by his pride and persecuted the church Jesus has to physically blind him so that he could see the truth. If  fishermen and tax collectors could see, than Pharisees and teachers of the law should have as well

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Jaydub said:

If  fishermen and tax collectors could see, than Pharisees and teachers of the law should have as well

After the resurrection and ascension of Christ many Pharisees, lawyers, and scribes did get saved, and unless they were Judaisers, they fellowshipped and assembled with Gentile believers.

The New Testament records instances where Pharisees, scribes, and others within Jewish leadership came to faith in Christ after His resurrection and ascension. Here are some relevant scriptures:

1. Acts 6:7 – "Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith." This shows that even among the Jewish priesthood, many accepted Christ.

2. Acts 15:5 – "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, 'It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.'" This verse indicates that there were Pharisees who believed in Christ but initially struggled with integrating the Gentile believers without the Mosaic Law (a key issue at the Jerusalem Council).

3. Galatians 2:11–14 – While not specifically naming Pharisees, this passage discusses early tensions between Jewish and Gentile believers, with Paul confronting Peter for his hypocrisy in separating from Gentiles under pressure from certain Jewish believers.

4. Ephesians 2:14–16 – Though not naming individuals, this passage beautifully highlights the unity Christ brings between Jewish and Gentile believers: "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation."

The early church was a melting pot of diverse believers, where former enemies, like Pharisees and Gentiles, came together under the banner of Christ. It's a powerful testament to the transforming power of the gospel.

Jesus made it clear that His mission was to save all people, but He especially emphasized reaching those who were marginalized, struggling, and spiritually lost. In Matthew 9:12–13, He famously said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Similarly, Luke 19:10 highlights His purpose: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

He reached out to outcasts—tax collectors, sinners, the poor, and even those whom society rejected—to demonstrate God's love and grace. His teachings underscored that salvation was available to anyone, regardless of their background or social status.

[Anne2]

23 hours ago, Jaydub said:

Paul being a pharisee knew the scriptures and should have seen, his father was also a pharisee, he knew the scriptures. It is why, I believe he considers himself the worst of all sinners, because, with his knowledge of the scriptures he should have seen the truth, but he was blinded by his pride and persecuted the church Jesus has to physically blind him so that he could see the truth. If  fishermen and tax collectors could see, than Pharisees and teachers of the law should have as well

Paul himself said

Ac 3:17  And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

These men however, willfully did this.....
Mt 26:59  Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
Mr 14:56  For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
Mr 14:57  And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,

But Jew's keep the covenant of circumcision.

Rom 3:1   What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2  Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

What of it if some did those things???? Those who believe are yet in covenant with God

3  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Ge 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
 

[farouk]

On 3/23/2025 at 11:12 PM, NConly said:

This what was taught to humans

Ezk 39

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

As one can see in Verse 25 above " Therefore saith the Lord" That is who is speaking.

One can see in the underline portion  The Lord will bring back the ones alive of Jacob this is in progress in today's world still ongoing.

In the enlarged letters we see The Lord says "the whole house of Israel"  I have no reason to doubt The Lord means what He says; the Whole House.

Rom 11

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I do believe Paul is speaking who was taught by Jesus, If I am wrong correct me.

In V25 the first words are "All Israel will be saved" AS IT IS WRITTEN I have No reason to doubt.

If you are still in doubt or are looking for someone to give you a specific number How can one do that when you see what was taught. All Israel will be saved, I believe Lord.

 

 

Hi @NConly

I think in this sort of subject it's good to remember that Paul speaks of 3 groups of ppl:

1 Corinthians 10.32: 'the Jews, ... the Gentiles, ... the church of God:'

 

[NConly]

8 hours ago, farouk said:

Hi @NConly

I think in this sort of subject it's good to remember that Paul speaks of 3 groups of ppl:

1 Corinthians 10.32: 'the Jews, ... the Gentiles, ... the church of God:'

 

When I think of groups this how I usually break them down

Jews, Gentiles, Church that believe in God only and follow old law old covenant only.

Jews, Gentiles, Church that believe in The Son of God and follow Jesus in Faith new law new covenant.

Jews,Gentiles, Church  that do not believe in God at all or Jesus.

Jews, Gentiles, Church that mix old and new law and mix old and new covenant.

No matter which group one is in God the Father picked Israel as his chosen nation.

Ex 19

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

He chose them, taught them, he scattered and punished them and he is bringing them back as He said and he will save them.

When the Jews rejected Jesus the Gentiles did not replace them they were added in. The Jews are still Gods chosen people. The church does not replace Gods chosen People we were added in through the new covenant and Gods chosen people will accept the Son of God before the end.

Ez 36

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

the verses above describe the new covenant given to Israel which is to come

 

 

[Anne2]

10 hours ago, NConly said:

When the Jews rejected Jesus the Gentiles did not replace them they were added in. The Jews are still Gods chosen people. The church does not replace Gods chosen People we were added in through the new covenant and Gods chosen people will accept the Son of God before the end.

I believe the Apostolic church, is the Church of the firstborn. The Isreal of God.

That does not Equal anyone replacing the Jew's which are not in Christ. We are one new man.

The law in Christ is not new. It is the law of faith that has been from the beginning. As Hebrews shows beginning with Abel.

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

It was law Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob kept. Sara, Noah too

It was not abolished when Moses law (levitical) was given....

7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {moved … : or, being wary }
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
 

They all died in faith not having received what was promised....

Joseph knew that.......

22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

So did Abraham.....See? The land covenant.....

13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
 

Why did Joseph know? Jacob know? Isaac know?

Heb 11:22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph How many generations?  These will arise in the resurrection, when Christ comes in his kingdom. They have not received it yet...

 

 

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

I believe the Apostolic church, is the Church of the firstborn. The Isreal of God.

That does not Equal anyone replacing the Jew's which are not in Christ. We are one new man.

The law in Christ is not new. It is the law of faith that has been from the beginning. As Hebrews shows beginning with Abel.

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

It was law Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob kept. Sara, Noah too

It was not abolished when Moses law (levitical) was given....

7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {moved … : or, being wary }
8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
 

They all died in faith not having received what was promised....

Joseph knew that.......

22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

So did Abraham.....See? The land covenant.....

13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
 

Why did Joseph know? Jacob know? Isaac know?

Heb 11:22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Isaac, Jacob, Joseph How many generations?  These will arise in the resurrection, when Christ comes in his kingdom. They have not received it yet...

 

 

I agree there are lots of times people in the OT showed faith and or lived by faith.

I believe in the new covenant without any old law mixed in just as described in the NT

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

 

I believe in the new covenant without any old law mixed in just as described in the NT

I kind of thought this might have been your point. And I definitely would agree