Free from sin?

[Orion]

6 minutes ago, Live2believe said:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

Yed, Yes, of course God is perfectly sinless. Now, tell me if you are, too.

[enoob57]

11 hours ago, Live2believe said:

In Romans chapter 7, Paul described himself BEFORE the Holy Spirit came, for contrast. And in chapter 8 he shows the change the Holy Spirit made. Please compare:

This is not found contextually within Scripture... 

Romans 7:22 (KJV)

[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

many have tried to front what you are proposing but Paul made it abundantly clear

Galatians 5:17 (KJV)

[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For God says 
Galatians 5:25 (KJV)

[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[St_Worm2]

On 4/28/2025 at 10:40 AM, Live2believe said:

"We" is used as a general statement that all people sin. 

Hello again Live2believe, while I agree that "we" can be used generally (as all sin .. e.g. Romans 3:23), we know that this is NOT true in the excerpt that I posited above from 1 John 1-2 (which we know because of context).

Context most often plays an incredibly important role in determining the actual meaning of a word, phrase, verse and/or passage in the Bible, whether in Hebrew or Greek, and this is certainly both true and helpful in 1 John 1-2.

The first question to ask, then, when looking at the posited text is, who is the Apostle John referring to (whenever he writes, "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" in that passage)? Is the "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" referring to everyone, everywhere w/o exception, or did the Apostle actually have a more specific group in mind instead 

Let's take a look.

1 John 1
8      If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
10      If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 

When considered by itself, ~some~ of what is said in this short passage could be applied to either unbelievers or believers, I suppose, but not all of it because,

1. The "truth" and His "word" reside in true believers, alone.
2. More importantly, God does not forgive the sins of those who are not saved, even if they do choose to confess them every now and again (because God's forgiveness is only for the redeemed, our redemption being merited for us by our Redeemer/Savior and His blood, apart from which forgiveness will not be granted to anyone (e.g. Hebrews 9:22, 10:4).

Moving on...

1 John 2
1      My ~little children~, I am writing these things ~to you~ so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 
2      and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 
3      By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 

So, here we see who the Apostle is referring to a bit more clearly. My "little children" refers to believers (in general, in this case), and it is to them/us (to believers both then and today, of course .. those of us who both "KNOW HIM" and for whom He is the Advocate with the Father) that the Apostle has written this Epistle (e.g. .. "I am writing these things to you").

Further, John goes on to clear up any questions about which Christians (which members of the invisible church, that is) fall under the guidelines that he outlined for us (e.g. 1 John 1:9) by pointing out that ALL true believers need to confess their sins whenever they commit them, whether they be babes in Christ ("little children/children"), or those in the church who have already been progressively sanctified by God and are now more mature in the faith ("young men"), and/or those who are considered to be elders/leaders in the faith ("fathers") .. which, as I mentioned earlier, includes the Apostle John himself, who included himself both here and as a part of the "we", "us", "our" and "ourselves" in 1 John 1.

1 John 2
12      I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 
13      I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 
 14      I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 

This means that the "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" are all referring to believers in 1 John 1-2, NOT to the lost (or even to some sort of combination of the two (the saints and the reprobate together). This also means that your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 cannot be correct (for the reasons just given and other reasons too).

More on the rest later :)

God bless you!!

--David
 

Edited April 30 by St_Worm2
Needed to explain something a bit more clearly.

[Live2believe]

On 4/28/2025 at 7:32 PM, Orion said:

Yed, Yes, of course God is perfectly sinless. Now, tell me if you are, too.

My point is that if I say that I am sinless, or know someone who is, this is not going to prove anything to anyone if we don't understand the Sriptures.

[Live2believe]

On 4/28/2025 at 8:10 PM, enoob57 said:

This is not found contextually within Scripture... 

Romans 7:22 (KJV)

[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

many have tried to front what you are proposing but Paul made it abundantly clear

Galatians 5:17 (KJV)

[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For God says 
Galatians 5:25 (KJV)

[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

 

 

 

I don't see contradictions here. Please consider that not everyone who believed the Gospel was born of God.

[Live2believe]

15 hours ago, St_Worm2 said:

Hello again Live2believe, while I agree that "we" can be used generally (as all sin .. e.g. Romans 3:23), we know that this is NOT true in the excerpt that I posited above from 1 John 1-2 (which we know because of context).

Context most often plays an incredibly important role in determining the actual meaning of a word, phrase, verse and/or passage in the Bible, whether in Hebrew or Greek, and this is certainly both true and helpful in 1 John 1-2.

The first question to ask, then, when looking at the posited text is, who is the Apostle John referring to (whenever he writes, "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" in that passage)? Is the "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" referring to everyone, everywhere w/o exception, or did the Apostle actually have a more specific group in mind instead 

Let's take a look.

1 John 1
8      If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
10      If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 

When considered by itself, ~some~ of what is said in this short passage could be applied to either unbelievers or believers, I suppose, but not all of it because,

1. The "truth" and His "word" reside in true believers, alone.
2. More importantly, God does not forgive the sins of those who are not saved, even if they do choose to confess them every now and again (because God's forgiveness is only for the redeemed, our redemption being merited for us by our Redeemer/Savior and His blood, apart from which forgiveness will not be granted to anyone (e.g. Hebrews 9:22, 10:4).

Moving on...

1 John 2
1      My ~little children~, I am writing these things ~to you~ so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 
2      and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 
3      By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 

So, here we see who the Apostle is referring to a bit more clearly. My "little children" refers to believers (in general, in this case), and it is to them/us (to believers both then and today, of course .. those of us who both "KNOW HIM" and for whom He is the Advocate with the Father) that the Apostle has written this Epistle (e.g. .. "I am writing these things to you").

Further, John goes on to clear up any questions about which Christians (which members of the invisible church, that is) fall under the guidelines that he outlined for us (e.g. 1 John 1:9) by pointing out that ALL true believers need to confess their sins whenever they commit them, whether they be babes in Christ ("little children/children"), or those in the church who have already been progressively sanctified by God and are now more mature in the faith ("young men"), and/or those who are considered to be elders/leaders in the faith ("fathers") .. which, as I mentioned earlier, includes the Apostle John himself, who included himself both here and as a part of the "we", "us", "our" and "ourselves" in 1 John 1.

1 John 2
12      I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 
13      I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 
 14      I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 

This means that the "we", "us", "our", "ourselves" and "you" are all referring to believers in 1 John 1-2, NOT to the lost (or even to some sort of combination of the two (the saints and the reprobate together). This also means that your interpretation of 1 John 3:9 cannot be correct (for the reasons just given and other reasons too).

More on the rest later :)

God bless you!!

--David
 

Hi David, please consider that John was also talking to Gnostics - believers who did not believe in sin. Therefore, "we" was a general statement that people sin. Also notice with the "children" and "fathers" that the believers had different levels of spiritual maturity, i.e., not everyone was born again.

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Live2believe said:

My point is that if I say that I am sinless, or know someone who is, this is not going to prove anything to anyone if we don't understand the Sriptures.

Can you say that you are sinless?  

[Orion]

Impeccability of Christians

By Dr. Tim White

August 17, 2017

C. H. Spurgeon was preaching in a conference in which another preacher was teaching that Christians could attain sinless perfection in this life and that he had humbly attained this sinlessness. The next morning at breakfast, Spurgeon snuck up behind the sinless preacher and dumped an entire pitcher of milk on his head. Guess what happened? He sinned. 

[farouk]

On 4/27/2025 at 5:26 AM, timf said:

2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

@timf In this lies the victory, indeed.......

[missmuffet]

On 4/25/2025 at 7:28 AM, Live2believe said:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36)

Did the Savior free the believers from sin?

All humans sin and that includes born again Christians. Romans 3:23

Edited April 30 by missmuffet