Judgment By Fire Is Not Just On The Surface

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

No, that is not what this verse is saying. It said, "to the lowest parts of 'asked about'," which means "to the lowest parts of the graves." To say "the core of the earth" has no justification.

What graves? The bottom of the ocean?

How convenient and illogical to think that only the dead in graves are being referred to in the Scriptures.

Ezekiel 28:

They will bring you down to the pit,

And you will die the death of those who are killed

In the heart of the seas.

Your casual comment assumes a common death.

Not all death is at all common.

Bemidbar Sixteen:

28 And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. 

29 If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. 

30 But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 

32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 

33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.

Since so many on this forum use a Parable found in Luke 16, surely there would be no objection of finding further insight from Ezekiel concerning the 'underworld'.

Ezekiel 31: Tree of Life [Messianic] version TLV

For they have all been given to death, to the lowest regions under the earth, among the children of men who go down to the Pit.”

15 Thus says Adonai Elohim:
“In the day when he went down to Sheol
I caused the deep to mourn
and cover itself for him.
I restrained his rivers,
so the great waters were stopped.
I made Lebanon mourn for him.
All the trees of the field wilt away for it.
16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall,
when I cast him down to Sheol with those who descend into the Pit.
All the well-watered trees of Eden,
the choice and best of Lebanon,
were comforted in the lowest parts of the earth.
17 They also went down with him to Sheol,
to those slain by the sword,
those who were his mighty arm,
who lived in his shadow among the nations.

18 ‘Who is like you in glory and greatness among the trees of Eden? You will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the lowest parts of the earth. You will lie among the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword.’

This is Pharaoh and all his multitude.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.

Do you think that the "trees of Eden" might be petroleum deposits now?

Ezekiel 32:

17 On the fifteenth day of the month in the twelfth year, the word of Adonai came to me saying:

18 “Son of man, wail over Egypt’s throng.
Bring them down
—her and the daughters of lofty nations,
to the underworld,
to those who go down to the pit.
19 Who do you surpass in beauty?
Go down, lie with the uncircumcised.
20 They fall among those slain by the sword.
She is given over to the sword.
They drag her down with all her throng.
21 The strongest warriors will speak of him
and his allies from the midst of Sheol.
They have gone down,
they lie still, the uncircumcised,
slain by the sword.

22 “Assyria is there and all her company,
their graves surround them
—all of them slain,
fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the deepest parts of the Pit.
Her company surrounds her grave
—all of them slain, fallen by the sword
—who put terror in the land of the living.

24 “There is Elam and all her multitude surrounding her grave
—all of them slain, fallen by the sword
—who went down uncircumcised into
the underworld, who caused terror in the land of the living.
They bear their disgrace with those who go down to the Pit.
25 They have made her a bed among
the slain with all her throng,
her graves about them
—all of them uncircumcised, slain, fallen by the sword—
though they caused terror in the land of the living.
So they bear their disgrace with those who go down to the Pit.
They are laid among the slain.

26 “Meshech-Tubal is there and all her throng,
her graves around them
—all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword,
though they spread their terror in the land of the living.
27 They do not lie with the mighty,
the fallen from among the uncircumcised,
who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war.
They put their swords under their heads.
Their iniquities rest on their bones because the terror of the mighty ones was in the land of the living.
28 You also will be shattered and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword.

29 “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes,
who for all their might are laid with those slain by the sword.
They lie with the uncircumcised,
with those who go down to the Pit.
30 “The princes of the north are there,
all of them, all the Zidonians, who have gone down with the slain,
ashamed for all the terror that they caused by their might.
They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword.
They bear their disgrace with those who go down to the pit.
31 When Pharaoh sees them,
he will be comforted for all his throng,
Pharaoh and all his army,
slain by the sword.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.
32 “For I have put My terror in the land of the living.
He will lie among the uncircumcised,
with those slain by the sword,
Pharaoh and all his multitude.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

What graves? The bottom of the ocean?

How convenient and illogical to think that only the dead in graves are being referred to in the Scriptures.

Shalom, @Mr. M.

It's not about convenience or logic; it's about the WORDING! The word "sh'owl" is NOT a word that means "the bottomless pit" or the "pit with an unsounded bottom." And, it CERTAINLY DOES NOT refer to the "CORE" or "CENTER" of the earth! 

The Hebrew word "שְׁאוֹל" or "sh'owl" (commonly written "sheol") carries this definition:

H7585 שְׁאוֹל shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:
—grave, hell, pit.

But, this "definition" shows how ENTRENCHED the spurious definitions have been exchanged in the past! Modern Christianity has been RIDICULOUSLY influenced by what Randy Alcorn calls "Christoplatonism!" s "Christianized Neo-Platonism" from Greek influence in the late 100s to 300s A.D. 

The word in Hebrew means "asked about" and it refers to the place where parents would take their children to honor their dead. They would take them to the gravesite, tomb, or sepulcher and their children would ASK their parents ABOUT their loved ones, giving the parents the opportunity to pass on their stories.

NOTE; all that is left of the truth of the meaning in Hebrew is found in the words "from H7592"!

H7592 שָׁאַל shâʼal, shaw-al'; or שָׁאֵל shâʼêl; a primitive root; to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand:
—ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, ×earnestly, enquire, greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, salute, × straitly, × surely, wish.

It is similar to the name "שָׁאוּל" or "Shaa'uwl" or "Saul":

H7586 שָׁאוּל Shâʼûwl, shaw-ool'; passive participle of H7592; asked; Shaul, the name of an Edomite and two Israelites:
—Saul, Shaul. 

We're not told why Shaa'uwl was so named, but like Hannah before him, when "God heard" her prayer for a son and her son was named "שְׁמוּאֵל" or "Shmuw'eel" or "Samuel," meaning "heard of God," his parents may also have "ASKED" God "FOR" a son, and when God granted their request, he was so named, "Asked-for." EVERY NAME in Hebrew means something!

Do you even realize what the diameter of the earth is? The diameter of the earth is said to be 7926.2 MILES at the equator! That means that the CENTER of the earth would be half of that below earth's surface - 3938.1 MILES DEEP! But, the earth is comprised of an inner core, an outer core, a mantle, and the cooled crust on top of the mantle, according to sonic measurements from blasts and earthquakes.

We have movies and books about going through the earth, such as "The Core," and Journey to the Center of the Earth, and "Godzilla Vs. King Cong," but NO ONE has even dug deeper than the Kola Superdeep Borehole. Google tells us,

The Kola Superdeep Borehole, located in Russia, is the deepest hole ever dug by humans. It reaches a depth of 12,262 meters (40,230 feet). This is equivalent to 7.6 miles or 12.2 kilometers.

Now, scientists believe that there is a pocket, a layer, between the crust and the mantle that grows hot enough to melt rock due to friction, creating magma under pressure. And, when an earthquake or volcano breaks through to this layer, the magma flows out of the volcano or earthquake as lava. But, we really have no empirical evidence for what lies deeper than that. Most of it is determined by seismic charges that are set off and measured for echo timing.

Most graves are said to be "six feet deep." However, we know that there are some who have been buried deeper than that in mine collapses and sink holes, but the crust is only about 5 to 70 kilometers thick, or 3 to 44 miles thick, and usually thinner at the bottom of the oceans.

Also, those "buried at sea" are most often eaten by the life under the sea, and the remaining debris eventually becomes a part of the ocean bottom. It depends on various factors, such as ocean undercurrents and any attached weights, but this will not deny the Master of Life and Death to call them back to life for judgment.

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ezekiel 28:

They will bring you down to the pit,

And you will die the death of those who are killed

In the heart of the seas.

Your casual comment assumes a common death.

All death is a death at the level of the earth's crust, even those deaths that occurred in the Flood of Noach's time. Sure, the "fountains of the deep were broken up," but they were still a part of the earth's crust, under pressure by the sheer volume and mass of material above them.

Ychezk'eel ("Ezekiel") is here talking about the King of Tyre (or Tsor, in Hebrew):

Ezekiel 28:1-19 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas'; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou [art] wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom [and] by thy traffick (as a seaport) hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:"

6 "'Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit (Hebrew: לַשַּׁחַת = 'lashshachat' = 'to-the-pit/trap/corruption/ditch/grave'), and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.

H7845 שַׁחַת shachath (shachat), shakh'-ath; from H7743; a pit (especially as a trap); figuratively, destruction:
—corruption, destruction, ditch, grave, pit.

The "l-" added to it is a prepositional prefix meaning "to" or "for," and the vowel pointing of a patach (a) and the dagesh of the shin - indicating a harder, more plosive "SH" sound - imply that the definite article is added.  

For a total of 23 times translated into the KJV,

"The KJV translates Strong's H7845 in the following manner:
corruption (4x), pit (14x), destruction (2x), ditch (2x), grave (1x)."

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] God? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.'"

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (a metaphor for luxury, happy comfort); every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more."'"

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Not all death is at all common.

Bemidbar Sixteen:

28 And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. 

29 If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. 

30 But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 

32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 

33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.

This, of course, was talking about Korah and his family and friends and associates. And, yes, they went down into a sinkhole, possibly with lava below! And, we know that it was deep enough to take down all they owned, including their tents! Whatever they felt was important enough to keep around them for this confrontation went down into the pit! Then, the pit closed over them, burying them alive!

(One should mention that "Bemidbar" or "bamMidbaar," meaning "In the Wilderness," is the Hebrew word that was used to name the book now known as  "Deuteronomy." It's the eleventh word in the first verse of the book.)

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Since so many on this forum use a Parable found in Luke 16, surely there would be no objection of finding further insight from Ezekiel concerning the 'underworld'.

First, the parable in Luke 16 is not about the now; it's about the future and is talking about the rich man facing his judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment. There are no flames in the grave. The flames are said to occur when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur. The rich man just wasn't aware that time had passed while he was dead. And, Avraham was not interested in telling him the truth to "comfort" him.

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ezekiel 31: Tree of Life [Messianic] version TLV

For they have all been given to death, to the lowest regions under the earth, among the children of men who go down to the Pit.”

15 Thus says Adonai Elohim:
“In the day when he went down to Sheol
I caused the deep to mourn
and cover itself for him.
I restrained his rivers,
so the great waters were stopped.
I made Lebanon mourn for him.
All the trees of the field wilt away for it.
16 I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall,
when I cast him down to Sheol with those who descend into the Pit.
All the well-watered trees of Eden,
the choice and best of Lebanon,
were comforted in the lowest parts of the earth.
17 They also went down with him to Sheol,
to those slain by the sword,
those who were his mighty arm,
who lived in his shadow among the nations.

18 ‘Who is like you in glory and greatness among the trees of Eden? You will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the lowest parts of the earth. You will lie among the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword.’

This is Pharaoh and all his multitude.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.

Do you think that the "trees of Eden" might be petroleum deposits now?

No, if anything, animals, fish, and birds leave oil deposits; plants leave coal deposits.

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ezekiel 32:

17 On the fifteenth day of the month in the twelfth year, the word of Adonai came to me saying:

18 “Son of man, WAIL OVER EGYPT’S THRONG.
Bring them down
—her and the daughters of lofty nations,
TO THE UNDERWORLD,
TO THOSE WHO GO DOWN TO THE PIT.

This is a HORRIBLE MISTRANSLATION of "אֶרֶץ תַּחְתִּיּוֹת" or "'erets tichtiyyowt"! the "lowest parts of the land!"

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

19 Who do you surpass in beauty?
Go down, lie with the uncircumcised.
20 They fall among those slain by the sword.
She is given over to the sword.
They drag her down with all her throng.
21 The strongest warriors will speak of him
and his allies from the midst of Sheol ("Asked-About!").
They have gone down,
they lie still, the uncircumcised,
slain by the sword.

22 “ASSYRIA is there and all her company,
their graves surround them
—all of them slain,
fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the deepest parts of the Pit.
Her company surrounds her grave
—all of them slain, fallen by the sword
—who put terror in the land of the living.

24 “There is ELAM and all her multitude surrounding her grave
—all of them slain, fallen by the sword
—who went down uncircumcised into
the underworld, who caused terror in the land of the living.

Here it is AGAIN!

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

They bear their disgrace with those who go down to the Pit.
25 They have made her a bed among
the slain with all her throng,
her graves about them
—all of them uncircumcised, slain, fallen by the sword—
though they caused terror in the land of the living.
So they bear their disgrace with those who go down to the Pit.
They are laid among the slain.

26 “MESHECH-TUBAL is there and all her throng,
her graves around them
—all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword,
though they spread their terror in the land of the living.
27 They do not lie with the mighty,
the fallen from among the uncircumcised,
who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war.
They put their swords under their heads.
Their iniquities rest on their bones because the terror of the mighty ones was in the land of the living.
28 You also will be shattered and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword.

29 “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes,
who for all their might are laid with those slain by the sword.
They lie with the uncircumcised,
with those who go down to the Pit.
30 “THE PRINCES OF THE NORTH ARE THERE,
ALL OF THEM, ALL THE ZIDONIANS, who have gone down with the slain,
ashamed for all the terror that they caused by their might.
They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword.
They bear their disgrace with those who go down to the pit.
31 When PHARAOH sees them,
he will be comforted for all his throng,
PHARAOH and all his army,
slain by the sword.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.
32 “For I have put My terror in the land of the living.
HE WILL LIE AMONG THE UNCIRCUMCISED,
with those slain by the sword,
PHARAOH AND ALL HIS MULTITUDE.”
It is a declaration of Adonai.

This is a PRIME example of how people have MISTRANSLATED and MISUNDERSTOOD what the author was trying to say in this passage! Even worse, this is a MISTRANSLATION of GOD'S words, and GOD WILL hold the translators accountable!

[Mr. M]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(One should mention that "Bemidbar" or "bamMidbaar," meaning "In the Wilderness," is the Hebrew word that was used to name the book now known as  "Deuteronomy." It's the eleventh word in the first verse of the book.)

Or the Book we call Numbers, but who's counting?

Numbers 1:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai..

Deuteronomy=Devarim=

1:1 "These be the words"

aka Mishneh Torah 

[Mr. M]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is a PRIME example of how people have MISTRANSLATED and MISUNDERSTOOD what the author was trying to say in this passage! Even worse, this is a MISTRANSLATION of GOD'S words, and GOD WILL hold the translators accountable!

I put no faith in any of the translations, but always search the root word of the original language for the passage studied to expand my understanding, what you describe in this response is not my concern. I will defer to you in all matters pertaining to the Underworld going forward. Not that I needed your help.

• Types of Subterranean Maps:

  • Geological Maps: Depict the distribution and types of rock formations, faults, and other geological features beneath the surface. 
     
  • Hydrological Maps: Show the location and flow of groundwater systems, including aquifers and underground rivers. 
     
  • Mining Maps: Illustrate the location and layout of mines, including tunnels, shafts, and other underground infrastructure. 
     
  • Seismic Hazard Maps: Identify areas prone to earthquakes and other seismic activity. 
  • • Subterranean maps have been developed for centuries, with early examples depicting underground caves, catacombs, and even hypothetical "hollow Earth" theories. 
       
    • With advancements in technology, mapping techniques have evolved to include seismic surveys, geophysical imaging, and 3D modeling. 
       
  • Modern Mapping Tools:

    • Geological Mapping: Tools like Earth MRI (Earth Mapping Resources Initiative) are being used to modernize mapping of the Nation's surface and subsurface. 
       
    • 3D GIS: Software like ArcGIS Earth provides interactive 3D visualization and analysis of underground features. 
       
    • Online Platforms: Websites like Submap, a resource hosted by the University of Montpellier in France, offer easy access to a wide range of data sets for mapping subduction zones. 
       
  • Applications:

    • Infrastructure Planning: Subterranean maps are essential for designing tunnels, pipelines, and other underground infrastructure, according to The Guardian. 
       
    • Mineral Resource Management: They help in identifying and evaluating the potential for mining and extracting valuable minerals. 
       
    • Environmental Protection: Subterranean maps can be used to monitor groundwater pollution, manage landfill sites, and prevent subsidence. 
       
    • Hazard Assessment: They are crucial for assessing the risk of earthquakes, landslides, and other natural disasters. 
    •  
    • A very interesting field of study.
    • One final inquiry? How deep has the Lord prepared for His Tophet?
    • Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet was established of old,
      Yes, for the king it is prepared.
      He has made it deep and large;
      Its pyre is fire with much wood;
      The breath of the like a stream of brimstone kindles it.
    • Do you suppose the oil deposits of the Middle East were formed over "millions and millions of years" or as a result of God's judgment of Assyria and Eden?
    • Ezekiel 31:

      3 Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,
      With fine branches that shaded the forest,
      And of high stature;
      And its top was among the thick boughs.
      4 The waters made it grow;
      Underground waters gave it height,
      With their rivers running around the place where it was planted,
      And sent out [a]rivulets to all the trees of the field.

      5 ‘Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field;
      Its boughs were multiplied,
      And its branches became long because of the abundance of water,
      As it sent them out.
      6 All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs;
      Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young;
      And in its shadow all great nations made their home.

      7 ‘Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches,
      Because its roots reached to abundant waters.
      8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it;
      The fir trees were not like its boughs,
      And the [c]chestnut trees were not like its branches;
      No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.
      9 I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches,
      So that all the trees of Eden envied it,
      That were in the garden of God.’

      10 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was [d]lifted up in its height, 11 therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12 And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.

      13 ‘On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens,
      And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches—

      14 So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.

      ‘For they have all been delivered to death,
      To the depths of the earth,
      Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’

      15 “Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to [e]hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to [f]mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to [g]hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

      18 ‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.”

[Mr. M]

37 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

With advancements in technology, mapping techniques have evolved to include seismic surveys, geophysical imaging, and 3D modeling. 

 

I have seen some subterranean mapping that suggests strong 'support' for the seven pillars of the earth, as anchors to the major continental landforms. Catastrophic events in the past have disrupted this stability, but we know that it is the Lord who maintains them.

Isaiah 24:

17 Fear and the pit and the snare
Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;
For the windows from on high are open,
And the foundations of the earth are shaken.

19 The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again.

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together, (a lot of people for one pit!)
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

[Mr. M]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

• A very interesting field of study.
• One final inquiry? How deep has the Lord prepared for His Tophet?
• Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet was established of old,
  Yes, for the king it is prepared.
  He has made it deep and large;
  Its pyre is fire with much wood;
  The breath of the like a stream of brimstone kindles it.
• Do you suppose the oil deposits of the Middle East were formed over "millions and millions of years" or as a result of God's judgment of Assyria and Eden?

Do you think naphtha is naturally occurring, or did the Lord do a "new thing"? Perhaps Velikovsky is correct, and it is extra-terrestrial? Or maybe formed by other catastrophic events.

Joshua Ten:

12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Do you think stopping the earth's rotation, even briefly, would be catastrophic?

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2025 at 10:33 AM, Mr. M said:

Do you think naphtha is naturally occurring, or did the Lord do a "new thing"? Perhaps Velikovsky is correct, and it is extra-terrestrial? Or maybe formed by other catastrophic events.

Joshua Ten:

12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Do you think stopping the earth's rotation, even briefly, would be catastrophic?

Shalom, @Mr. M.

Sorry for not getting back to you right away. Got involved in the "BUSTED" topic.

Yes, naphtha can be naturally occurring with the right conditions. However, it is not a normally existing substance. It is a by-product of the distillation of crude oil, which in turn was indeed formed by a catastrophic event - the FLOOD of Noach's 600th birthday!

And, yes, the stopping of the earth's rotation would be catastrophic. However, there's another suggestion which doesn't involve the earth's rotation being stopped for the explanation of Joshua 10:12.

A "rotation" may not be a perfect circle; indeed, most "circles" in nature are NOT perfect circles if they are wave patterns from cyclic conditions that continually slightly decay, such as the "night-day" cycle of earth's rotation. They are actually more like cardioids, however delayed the cusp of the wave pattern may be. Like a spinning top occasionally will "wobble," the rotation is still occurring, but the cusp is like a "hiccup" in the pattern, allowing for the APPEARANCE of stopping, while not stopping.

I believe that's what happened in Joshua 10:12. Another such "hiccup" may have occurred when Hizkiyaahuw's (Hezekiah's) sundial "went backward ten degrees." in 2 Kings 20:9-11 and Isaiah 38:8. And, again, I will qualify this answer with the fact that we really don't know HOW God performed it, but this is a plausible possibility.

I'm not saying that is exactly how God must have done it, but He COULD have done it that way or by another way which we cannot imagine, as yet. After all, HE is God, and what are we by comparison? We're but blind gnats trying to feel our way through His vast Universe!

[Mr. M]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

A "rotation" may not be a perfect circle; indeed, most "circles" in nature are NOT perfect circles if they are wave patterns from cyclic conditions that continually slightly decay, such as the "night-day" cycle of earth's rotation.

I like to call them 'ripples' such as being formed by the 'wobble' at the poles. This is moderate, true, but conditions are such that we may experience a 'shiver' soon. How's that for a descriptive terminology!?

[Mr. M]

18 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, naphtha can be naturally occurring with the right conditions. However, it is not a normally existing substance. It is a by-product of the distillation of crude oil, which in turn was indeed formed by a catastrophic event - the FLOOD of Noach's 600th birthday!

Velikovsky postulated they came from a close encounter with Venus, and her atmosphere. Once again...

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Velikovsky postulated they came from a close encounter with Venus, and her atmosphere. Once again...

Shalom, @Mr. M.

Well, I looked this up online:

"At closest approach, Venus can be about 24 million miles(38 million kilometers) from Earth. This occurs when Earth and Venus are on the same side of the Sun during inferior conjunction."

So, it seems unlikely, not to mention that a close conjunction with Venus would be a weird mix of their gravitational forces, making things slightly lighter on the surface of the earth (or heavier on the opposite side of the earth). And, at 24,000,000 miles apart, that fluctuation would be minimal. The two planets are just not close enough to do that kind of change.

Fun to think about though, isn't it?