Christ is Israel

[In1]

19 hours ago, Luther said:

I agree, and that's how I look at Exodus 4:22. It has spiritual meaning relating to Christ and His people. That's how I understand the beautiful importance of Israel in God's eyes.

To throw it out there ... I believe this to be part of the language of God which is relational ... sun, moon, heaven, earth, stars, father, mother, man, woman, brothers, wells, brides, wifes, gardens, mountains, trees, rivers, seas, valleys, cities, clouds, paths, garments, staff's, rod's, face of the deep, deep sleep, walls, things inclosed, things not inclosed, swords, serpents, flesh, worm, sevenheaded dragons, towers, seeds, pits, pits without a bottoms, mouth, tongue, pen, iron, wilderness, axe heads that swim, rivers that overflow their banks, to a river whose banks (and what is in the midst) are a/the tree of life, to an image whose peices a wind carries away, or when we behold his face, what no place is found for, or even when God comes down, or a woman whose had five husbands and a sixth one who is not her own, or a land not your own ... etc

God has no measurement, or no beginning and end to measure him by. His language is the same, but he must relate this language to us, who are caught in the mentality of having a beginning and an end, which is self-deceptive, being the very snare our own soul becomes to us by/through it.

All of this speaks to the process happening in us ... 

 

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Jaydub said:

John 15:1-2

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is using the same words as Jeremiah 2:21 He is the true vine, he is the true Israel and we are grafted in to him

A tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31 etc). Israel is a Vine (Ps.80:8, Isa 5:2) and after the Assyrian deportation the remaining Tribes were called a Fig Tree. It was subsequently CURSED. Jeremiah 2:21 speaks of Israel in crisis, not Jesus. 

21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? (Jer.2:21).

Perish the thought that our Lord Jesus be "degenerate" and "strange"!

In John 15 our Lord Jesus is not a Vine. He is a TRUE Vine. According to to John 20:30-31 these "signs" were to provoke you to faith and faith would lead to LIFE. Jesus, the True Vine, depicts a King and a Kingdom of LIFE - eternal life. The branches that are barren are not Christians who are lost after conversion. They are removed from the KINGDOM. The fruitful branches are also cut, but remain in the LIFE-FLOW of the stem and are not hindered from bearing the fruit of eternal LIFE (see 7:39).

If you are not sure of the relationship between our Lord Jesus and Israel, read the closing verses of Matthew 12. Jesus DISOWNS Israel. Chapter 13 show him leaving the "house of His brethren", leaving the sand of the sea-shore and taking up position in a boat. The sea in Type is the Nations and the boat, in the sea - but not OF it, depicts the Church. After four parables to the crowd, He enters another House. In this House is Jesus and DISCIPLES - not countrymen. In this house is understanding of the mysteries of the Kingdom. Only in the Church ("the pillar and ground of the TRUTH" - 1st Tim.3:15) is understanding given.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Orion said:

Well that settles the issue of whether thief on the cross was baptized, and for that matter the high priest Caiaphas, and Barabbas, and all the pharisees and saduccees, and Pilate, all the Romans soldiers in Judea, since Mark 1:5 says "there went out unto him (John the baptist) all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Context, my friend.  Paul first writes that only a remnant of Israel will be saved, then a few verses later writes that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, in that way all of Israel will be saved. In other words: Paul is saying that the remnant of faithful Jews in Christ and the fullness of faithful Gentiles in Christ are going to be saved. That's what "all" means. 

Sorry I don't have time to answer your other comments. Perhaps tomorrow. 

Peace 

I'm sorry to say that I don't understand. What has the malefactor on the cross got to do with Israel?

But concerning that, now that you have brought it up, the malefactor asked our Lord Jesus concerning His KINGDOM. The context was the superscription that Pilate ordered on Jesus' cross. In that He (Jesus) is "King of the JEWS". Therefore the discourse was about when Jesus would be crowned King of Israel. What has Baptism got to do with the Kingdom of Israel? You're right. Context is everything.

But the matter is not finished. Jesus answered not a word about the Kingdom. He spoke of Paradise in Hades where they would be together after death - not the kingdom they would be after resurrection (Dan.12:1-2, Ezek.37).

I understand you being short of time. Next time, just quote the verses where Israel turn to the Lord. My Bible says they remain hard and blind until the fullness of the gentiles.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Yep, all can mean not all.....

Luke 7:29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

There is no "all" that is not "all". Verse 29 does not stop after "all". It reads "all that HEARD him". The word "heard" can been the exercise of the ear as in sound, OR it can mean they were in agreement. 

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (Matt.18:15).

Verse 30 tell which one. SOME were not in agreement.

[Anne2]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Circumcision is not a Covenant

Hi AdHoc.

I don't understand your reasoning. But then again you don't agree with mine either .

Just some scripture.

Ge 17:13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
 

Ac 7:8  And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

 

[Anne2]

7 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There is no "all" that is not "all". Verse 29 does not stop after "all". It reads "all that HEARD him". The word "heard" can been the exercise of the ear as in sound, OR it can mean they were in agreement. 

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (Matt.18:15).

Verse 30 tell which one. SOME were not in agreement.

That was in response to a post with reference to this scripture.

5  Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6  And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Alive said:

I agree with much of this, as I understand some of what scripture teaches.

At one time, for years I believed somehow naturally born man would live and continue to reproduce but never die..I reasoned to increasingly fill an empty universe and that we ‘In Christ” with resurrection bodies would have much work to do managing and expressing Christ to them.

Our God is a worker and we will be fellow workers with him.

Such was my thinking. I have since been unable to reconcile some things in that scenario with some points of scripture. There remain ‘apparent’ contradictions, which are actually IMO likely intended by God.

I have said it before and repeat here. I do not believe anyone alive today understand Revelation fully, but the original hearers did..as the Lord provided anointed ones to explain it.

I remain unsure but steadfast in the assurance of His Return and the Resurrection and that we will be co-workers for eternity both in heaven and on earth and beyond. Even that simple language cannot be fathomed.

“But, as it is written, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has the mind of man imagined, the things that God has prepared for those who love him.””

(1 Corinthians 2:9 MOUNCE-NT)

https://accordance.bible/link/read/MOUNCE-NT#1Cor._2:9

I have always been impressed with your simple honesty. I agree. No one gets the FULL truth. Paul maybe, but a thorn is added. Man is, and stays stunted in His understanding. A energetic debate on the Triune God is not wrong, but at some stage the parties debating will have to admit that the Triune God is beyond human intellect. The rest is pride. It's like asking a man to explain the diameter of the universe. Besides not being able to cope with 93 billion light years, he cannot for sure say that it actually is this number. Nobody has been there to measure it. There is only one Witness to its construction and he measured it with the palm of His Hand (Isa.40:12, 48:13).

Concerning men in heaven, I have not found a verse that shows heaven as man's destiny. Made in heaven, reward in heaven and taken on a short journey to heaven - yes. But heaven as man's destination - no. On the other hand the scriptures are full of man's connection with earth (Psalm 8, Hebrews 2, Daniel 2, Genesis 1:26-28 etc. etc.)

[AdHoc]

36 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Hi AdHoc.

I don't understand your reasoning. But then again you don't agree with mine either .

Just some scripture.

Ge 17:13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
 

Ac 7:8  And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

 

I appreciate your non-combative answers. You're polite but to the point. May  answer thus;

A Covenant is a Contract between two parties. It is promissory agreement with both parties vowing to keep certain points in return for the other party keeping theirs. Usually there are penalties for non-compliance because the other party suffers a disadvantage when the first party defaults. Because man is fallen, Hebrews 9 tells us that anything between God and man must be ratified in blood - that is, the death of an innocent party is required.

With Abraham the Covenant was 15 or so unconditional promises from God's side and ONE from Abraham and his seed - circumcision. But the circumcision is not the ratification. It is man's side of the agreement. The sacrifice of Genesis 15 was the ratification - and it too was one-sided. Only God passed through the halves. To Abraham were promised THREE Seeds. (i) Christ - the Seed (singular), (ii) seed as the sand of the sea-shore - Israel, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven - the Church. The steer answers for Jesus, the goat and ram speak for the two houses of Israel and the turtles doves for the Church.

This is because the Covenant encompasses all three (Gal.3). Three is the number of resurrection so the age was three for both Christ and Israel. Two is the number of witness. Both Israel and the heavenly Church are two. And the opponents were principalities of the air.

The very verses you brought sustain this scheme. Romans 4:11 says circumcision is a "sign". It is a sign that you are prepared to set aside the pleasures of life to fulfill God's plan with the Land. But when it comes to the whole earth (Rom.4:13) the whole flesh must be counted as dead and full immersion in death waters is the sign (Rom.6:1-8, Col.2:10-12, Jn.3:5).

The next Covenant was 430 years later at Horeb. Moses sprinkles the books (tablets) of Law and he sprinkles the people. That was the ratification. But this was not an "everlasting covenant" and so a New Covenant is predicted. Both have, as man's part, LAW. The New Covenant, made with Israel ALONE, contains the same conditions as that of Moses - LAW. This covenant, predicted in many places, is made with Israel. Thus, we (Gentiles) have nothing to do with Law - ever, and for the Jewish convert to Christ, it is nailed to the cross (Eph.2:15).

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

That was in response to a post with reference to this scripture.

5  Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6  And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
 

Okay. I probably missed something. Please scratch anything that seems accusatory. But I'd like to let my comments stand because there are some who just change God's Word into their own words because they don't like, or don't understand, what God is revealing. There are no mistakes in the original word of God. "ALL" means "all" and Israel's UN-belief remains till Jesus bursts out of the clouds above Mt. Olives.

Because God's PROMISES are made to Abraham and his SEED (via Isaac and Jacob) "ALL", that is, EVERY Israelite has them applied to him/her. That is why Ezekiel 37 FIRST has Resurrection then the GATHERING.

This habit is very obvious on this Forum. It's better to say "I don't understand" than fiddle with God's Word

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I appreciate your non-combative answers. You're polite but to the point. May  answer thus;

And I also with you. You are one of the last persons I dislike disagreement . But heh it happens.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

A Covenant is a Contract between two parties. It is promissory agreement with both parties vowing to keep certain points in return for the other party keeping theirs.

I dont fully agree with this when it comes to the covenant of circumcision. Two parties are in covenant yes, but one swore an oath, which confirms the covenant. Which scripture tells us a confirmed covenant cannot be disannulled by a later covenant, Nor can anything be added  it, nor anything taken away from it. God swore an oath by himself concerning his promise to Abraham through Isaac in Genesis 22. When he sacrificed Issac (was willing to). That covenant will be done full stop. It is based on God's faithfulness to his oath he swore by himself. Also consider when men are dead, the law has no jurisdiction over them...

This is contrast to the priesthood of Levi, according to Aaron. Which was Changed and the law changed. Because it was without an oath....Hebrews tells us this Christ priesthood will never change.

Heb 7:21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) {without … : or, without swearing of an oath }
 

Consider this An oath.....which God will not turn from or change his mind...

Ps 110:4  The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Here is how I am looking at this unilateral covenant.

God spoke things to Abraham. Genesis 12

Ge 12:3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Then later the land covenant. concerning the redemption of the 4th generation of his seed in slavery. 

13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Abraham will be dead......

The Genesis 17 He promises Isaac, and the seed through him (this is the son chosen for the birthright) Gives him the covenant of circumcision, promises kings from his loins, and kings from his wife Sarah as a mother of people

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 

Then after this HE TESTS ABRAHAM... (His faith is tested) Also consider Isaac is the first generation, which the land covenant seed does not include....

Ge 22:1  And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. {Behold … : Heb. Behold me }
To offer up Isaac. Why? Because it is through Isaac his seed will be called. Abraham already knew he was going to be dead at the time of the promise to the fourth generation. Now, he is testing his faith in a resurrection to receive what God promised him...Could God have changed his mind if Abraham did not believe him.  I think yes....There would be no foul with God... 

When Abraham did this, then came the oath. 

Ge 22:15  And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17  That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
 

Heb 15  And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16  For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

1Chr 16:13  O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
14  He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.

15  Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17  And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a  law (o2706), and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

Ps 105:7  He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

There is more but I am trying not to make your eyes bleed LOL

Edited May 27 by Anne2