Christ is Israel

[AdHoc]

Hi @Orion, @Luther, @Anne2, and others.

The word "Remnant", as used by the Holy Spirit can mean two things. (i) It can mean "those that remain". And it can also (ii) mean "a select group that did not join the majority". When Noah survived the flood he and his family were a remnant of mankind. They did not join the rest of men. In Revelation 7:1-8 a select 144,000 Israelites were sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation did not kill them (9:4). So what is the REMNANT of Israel?

It is a certain percentage of ALL Israelites that do not go the way of Israel. This division is MORAL - NOT ETHNIC. Elijah stands for God and is threatened by Jezebel. He flees. God is gracious to meet him in a desert. Elijah complains that he is the only man let who is "jealous for God's Covenant of Sinai" wherein idol worship is forbidden. God did not order Elijah to run, nor to go to the wilderness. He had just single-handedly killed 400 false prophets. And now he runs from a woman!?  Yes. This was none other than a foreign woman who was not only queen of Israel by illegal marriage, but had 450 of her own prophets, all having mastery in the powers of darkness. Elijah had good reason to run. But what does God assure him?

God assures Elijah that He has kept 7,000 men like him for Himself. They are a select group of an idolatrous nation. Why did God do this? Because God is a God of SUBSTITUTION. For 50, 40 and 10 righteous men God would spare Sodom. To avoid the death of a billion sinners, God will accept one Man's death - Jesus. A Lamb, a goat or turtle doves can take the place of the firstborn of Israel and Aaron may enter the Holy of Holies once a year, a profane man, and not be killed - because of a substitute for him personally.

Now, what is not taught in Churches is that Israel have a way back to NATIONAL RESTORATION. I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity. The conditions for this are part of the Covenant of LAW. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses assumes that the curses of Chapter 28 will come upon Israel and he tells Israel how to be RECOVERED NATIONALLY. They must, with all their heart and soul, return to the LAW. It is the Law that got them dispersed and the same way is the way back - they must fulfill what Moses was telling THAT DAY. But do you think that ALL Israel will do this???

God is not naive. He knows from the beginning of time that Israel will, exactly at the time of turning back to the Law, worship the Beast and install him, a Roman Caesar, in a newly built Temple in Jerusalem (2nd Thess.2:1-4). Israel as a Nation will reach their darkest pit just when their Messiah, Jesus, is about to appear. What can save Israel THE NATION??? What saves them is a SUBSTITUTIONARY REMNANT. This is what God Promises in Romans 9 and 11. He concludes Israel in unbelief. He has cut them out of the Olive Tree. They have just one hope - that some Israelites will turn back to the Law. But the situation is even more drastic for God. Did He not PROMISE Israel the Land as a "everlasting possession". Never mind Israel's plight. GOD'S HONOR IS AT STAKE! Is He really capable of keeping His promises? Is He the ALL-Mighty??? YES!!!

He keeps for Himself a REMNANT of Israelites who turn to the LAW. They are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed so that the y are not killed, and we find them in Revelation 12 and 14. Two peoples will be present during the 1260 days of Great Tribulation; (i) "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - Christians, and (ii) "those who keep the Commandments of God" - Israelites. The term "Commandments of God", in the Old Testament, exclusively meant the Law of Moses. Christians have Christ as the their Head. They keep Christ's commandments. All authority in the New Testament is given to Christ. Those in Revelation who "keep the Commandments of GOD" are a REMNANT of ETHNIC JEWS. They are NOT believers in Christ. They are God's remnant to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

And now I reach my point. Israel is Israel - a Nation from the loins of Jacob. Whether a good Israelite or a bad one - they are ALL Israelites. Whether idol-worshiper or pious priest - the are BOTH Israelites. Whether sinners or REMNANT - they are ISRAELITES. There are no Israelites who are not Israelites. God only makes this distinction in Romans 2 in a MORAL SENSE. A Jew who is circumcised is a Jew. His claim to righteousness because of his Law is MOOT if he is morally destitute. So he is reckoned as circumcised in the foreskin but not circumcised IN HEART. The argument in Romans 2 does not concern ETHNICITY. It is an argument that God will judge EQUALLY based on a man's MORAL CIRCUMCISION. Let's examine Daniel 12:1-2:

Daniel 12:1-2 concerns "Daniel's people". It concerns Michael - an angel for Israel. Daniel's people is fought for by Michael. And then they are returned to their LAND. Now note; ALL Israel is returned to their Land - THE GOOD AND THE BAD. The REMNANT are not believers in Christ. They are God's select to recover NATIONAL ISRAEL.

[Orion]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi @Orion, @Luther, @Anne2, and others.

The word "Remnant", as used by the Holy Spirit can mean two things. (i) It can mean "those that remain". And it can also (ii) mean "a select group that did not join the majority". When Noah survived the flood he and his family were a remnant of mankind. They did not join the rest of men. In Revelation 7:1-8 a select 144,000 Israelites were sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation did not kill them (9:4). So what is the REMNANT of Israel?

It is a certain percentage of ALL Israelites that do not go the way of Israel. This division is MORAL - NOT ETHNIC. Elijah stands for God and is threatened by Jezebel. He flees. God is gracious to meet him in a desert. Elijah complains that he is the only man let who is "jealous for God's Covenant of Sinai" wherein idol worship is forbidden. God did not order Elijah to run, nor to go to the wilderness. He had just single-handedly killed 400 false prophets. And now he runs from a woman!?  Yes. This was none other than a foreign woman who was not only queen of Israel by illegal marriage, but had 450 of her own prophets, all having mastery in the powers of darkness. Elijah had good reason to run. But what does God assure him?

God assures Elijah that He has kept 7,000 men like him for Himself. They are a select group of an idolatrous nation. Why did God do this? Because God is a God of SUBSTITUTION. For 50, 40 and 10 righteous men God would spare Sodom. To avoid the death of a billion sinners, God will accept one Man's death - Jesus. A Lamb, a goat or turtle doves can take the place of the firstborn of Israel and Aaron may enter the Holy of Holies once a year, a profane man, and not be killed - because of a substitute for him personally.

Now, what is not taught in Churches is that Israel have a way back to NATIONAL RESTORATION. I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity. The conditions for this are part of the Covenant of LAW. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses assumes that the curses of Chapter 28 will come upon Israel and he tells Israel how to be RECOVERED NATIONALLY. They must, with all their heart and soul, return to the LAW. It is the Law that got them dispersed and the same way is the way back - they must fulfill what Moses was telling THAT DAY. But do you think that ALL Israel will do this???

God is not naive. He knows from the beginning of time that Israel will, exactly at the time of turning back to the Law, worship the Beast and install him, a Roman Caesar, in a newly built Temple in Jerusalem (2nd Thess.2:1-4). Israel as a Nation will reach their darkest pit just when their Messiah, Jesus, is about to appear. What can save Israel THE NATION??? What saves them is a SUBSTITUTIONARY REMNANT. This is what God Promises in Romans 9 and 11. He concludes Israel in unbelief. He has cut them out of the Olive Tree. They have just one hope - that some Israelites will turn back to the Law. But the situation is even more drastic for God. Did He not PROMISE Israel the Land as a "everlasting possession". Never mind Israel's plight. GOD'S HONOR IS AT STAKE! Is He really capable of keeping His promises? Is He the ALL-Mighty??? YES!!!

He keeps for Himself a REMNANT of Israelites who turn to the LAW. They are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed so that the y are not killed, and we find them in Revelation 12 and 14. Two peoples will be present during the 1260 days of Great Tribulation; (i) "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - Christians, and (ii) "those who keep the Commandments of God" - Israelites. The term "Commandments of God", in the Old Testament, exclusively meant the Law of Moses. Christians have Christ as the their Head. They keep Christ's commandments. All authority in the New Testament is given to Christ. Those in Revelation who "keep the Commandments of GOD" are a REMNANT of ETHNIC JEWS. They are NOT believers in Christ. They are God's remnant to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

And now I reach my point. Israel is Israel - a Nation from the loins of Jacob. Whether a good Israelite or a bad one - they are ALL Israelites. Whether idol-worshiper or pious priest - the are BOTH Israelites. Whether sinners or REMNANT - they are ISRAELITES. There are no Israelites who are not Israelites. God only makes this distinction in Romans 2 in a MORAL SENSE. A Jew who is circumcised is a Jew. His claim to righteousness because of his Law is MOOT if he is morally destitute. So he is reckoned as circumcised in the foreskin but not circumcised IN HEART. The argument in Romans 2 does not concern ETHNICITY. It is an argument that God will judge EQUALLY based on a man's MORAL CIRCUMCISION. Let's examine Daniel 12:1-2:

Daniel 12:1-2 concerns "Daniel's people". It concerns Michael - an angel for Israel. Daniel's people is fought for by Michael. And then they are returned to their LAND. Now note; ALL Israel is returned to their Land - THE GOOD AND THE BAD. The REMNANT are not believers in Christ. They are God's select to recover NATIONAL ISRAEL.

God's land promise to Israel has already been fulfilled (Joshua 21:43-45; 1 Kings 8:56).  This inheritance of the land is a type of what God has in store for the future. This type is a prophetic picture of the good things God promised to bring, which is fulfilled in Christ. 

The old Mosaic covenant is done away with by the new covenant made effective by the death burial and resurrection of Yeshua.  No one has ever been, nor will anyone ever be, saved by the works of the law. 

Daniel's 12:2 people are all peoples of every ethnicity that have/had faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed, which is fulfilled by the New Covenant in Christ. 

The remnant of Israel mentioned in 1 Kings 19:18 and Romans 9:24-27 are all those that have/had faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed, which is Yeshua.  

Because Yeshua is the promises Seed of Genesis 3:15, He is not just the Messiah to the Jews, He is the Messiah and Light to the entire World. 

Peace

[Anne2]

21 hours ago, Luther said:

There was a similar incident in Esther as well. I recently watched a sermon from one of the very few pastors I have similar views with. He laid out the rules of engagement that God gave Israel when they went to battle. It was interesting because there were only seven tribes that he wanted completely wiped out, Men, women, children, cattle even the suckling babies (In which Israel did not completely do).

But that wasn't the case with the rest of Israel's enemies. It's leading me to another study to see what these seven ( perfect) tribes had to do with the lineage of Cain.

This I am not following to well. The incident with Dinah was before the law, and God calling his army out of Egypt? It was those brought out of Egypt ( 4th generation) that were to take the land.

But in my mind I think about what customs (laws) were in place at that time. Was it law that A man who takes a woman like that either marries her or dies as Moses law retained that law? If that is so, in circumcision of a foreigner, him and his household belong to whatever tribe they bear children with. What tribe did Dinah belong to? Simeon and Levi were both her brothers, and they were the sons of Leah as brothers?

Edited May 23 by Anne2

[Luther]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi @Orion, @Luther, @Anne2, and others.

The word "Remnant", as used by the Holy Spirit can mean two things. (i) It can mean "those that remain". And it can also (ii) mean "a select group that did not join the majority". When Noah survived the flood he and his family were a remnant of mankind. They did not join the rest of men. In Revelation 7:1-8 a select 144,000 Israelites were sealed so that the mechanism of the Great Tribulation did not kill them (9:4). So what is the REMNANT of Israel?

It is a certain percentage of ALL Israelites that do not go the way of Israel. This division is MORAL - NOT ETHNIC. Elijah stands for God and is threatened by Jezebel. He flees. God is gracious to meet him in a desert. Elijah complains that he is the only man let who is "jealous for God's Covenant of Sinai" wherein idol worship is forbidden. God did not order Elijah to run, nor to go to the wilderness. He had just single-handedly killed 400 false prophets. And now he runs from a woman!?  Yes. This was none other than a foreign woman who was not only queen of Israel by illegal marriage, but had 450 of her own prophets, all having mastery in the powers of darkness. Elijah had good reason to run. But what does God assure him?

God assures Elijah that He has kept 7,000 men like him for Himself. They are a select group of an idolatrous nation. Why did God do this? Because God is a God of SUBSTITUTION. For 50, 40 and 10 righteous men God would spare Sodom. To avoid the death of a billion sinners, God will accept one Man's death - Jesus. A Lamb, a goat or turtle doves can take the place of the firstborn of Israel and Aaron may enter the Holy of Holies once a year, a profane man, and not be killed - because of a substitute for him personally.

Now, what is not taught in Churches is that Israel have a way back to NATIONAL RESTORATION. I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity. The conditions for this are part of the Covenant of LAW. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses assumes that the curses of Chapter 28 will come upon Israel and he tells Israel how to be RECOVERED NATIONALLY. They must, with all their heart and soul, return to the LAW. It is the Law that got them dispersed and the same way is the way back - they must fulfill what Moses was telling THAT DAY. But do you think that ALL Israel will do this???

God is not naive. He knows from the beginning of time that Israel will, exactly at the time of turning back to the Law, worship the Beast and install him, a Roman Caesar, in a newly built Temple in Jerusalem (2nd Thess.2:1-4). Israel as a Nation will reach their darkest pit just when their Messiah, Jesus, is about to appear. What can save Israel THE NATION??? What saves them is a SUBSTITUTIONARY REMNANT. This is what God Promises in Romans 9 and 11. He concludes Israel in unbelief. He has cut them out of the Olive Tree. They have just one hope - that some Israelites will turn back to the Law. But the situation is even more drastic for God. Did He not PROMISE Israel the Land as a "everlasting possession". Never mind Israel's plight. GOD'S HONOR IS AT STAKE! Is He really capable of keeping His promises? Is He the ALL-Mighty??? YES!!!

He keeps for Himself a REMNANT of Israelites who turn to the LAW. They are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as promised in Romans 9 and 11. They are sealed so that the y are not killed, and we find them in Revelation 12 and 14. Two peoples will be present during the 1260 days of Great Tribulation; (i) "Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - Christians, and (ii) "those who keep the Commandments of God" - Israelites. The term "Commandments of God", in the Old Testament, exclusively meant the Law of Moses. Christians have Christ as the their Head. They keep Christ's commandments. All authority in the New Testament is given to Christ. Those in Revelation who "keep the Commandments of GOD" are a REMNANT of ETHNIC JEWS. They are NOT believers in Christ. They are God's remnant to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

And now I reach my point. Israel is Israel - a Nation from the loins of Jacob. Whether a good Israelite or a bad one - they are ALL Israelites. Whether idol-worshiper or pious priest - the are BOTH Israelites. Whether sinners or REMNANT - they are ISRAELITES. There are no Israelites who are not Israelites. God only makes this distinction in Romans 2 in a MORAL SENSE. A Jew who is circumcised is a Jew. His claim to righteousness because of his Law is MOOT if he is morally destitute. So he is reckoned as circumcised in the foreskin but not circumcised IN HEART. The argument in Romans 2 does not concern ETHNICITY. It is an argument that God will judge EQUALLY based on a man's MORAL CIRCUMCISION. Let's examine Daniel 12:1-2:

Daniel 12:1-2 concerns "Daniel's people". It concerns Michael - an angel for Israel. Daniel's people is fought for by Michael. And then they are returned to their LAND. Now note; ALL Israel is returned to their Land - THE GOOD AND THE BAD. The REMNANT are not believers in Christ. They are God's select to recover NATIONAL ISRAEL.

You said: "  I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity."

Serious question: What would be the point of that?

And if you're making any reference to Israel 1948, I do not see any peace and prosperity. I do not believe this is a blessing from God. God's blessings have to do with life and goodness.

[Luther]

46 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

This I am not following to well. The incident with Dinah was before the law, and God calling his army out of Egypt? It was those brought out of Egypt ( 4th generation) that were to take the land.

But in my mind I think about what customs (laws) were in place at that time. Was it law that A man who takes a woman like that either marries her or dies as Moses law retained that law? If that is so, in circumcision of a foreigner, him and his household belong to whatever tribe they bear children with. What tribe did Dinah belong to? Simeon and Levi were both her brothers, and they were the sons of Leah as brothers?

I hope I can try to be a little more clear. I'm talking about morality. In both instances of retaliation in the book of Esther and with Dinah, this was disobedience to God's law. In both instances, deception. We read nowhere in either case of God 's blessing for those actions.

 

Edited May 23 by Luther

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

This I am not following to well. The incident with Dinah was before the law, and God calling his army out of Egypt? It was those brought out of Egypt ( 4th generation) that were to take the land.

But in my mind I think about what customs (laws) were in place at that time. Was it law that A man who takes a woman like that either marries her or dies as Moses law retained that law? If that is so, in circumcision of a foreigner, him and his household belong to whatever tribe they bear children with. What tribe did Dinah belong to? Simeon and Levi were both her brothers, and they were the sons of Leah as brothers?

@Anne2 I find it hard to follow also.

I guess it's easier to follow if sticking close to Scripture.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

God's land promise to Israel has already been fulfilled (Joshua 21:43-45; 1 Kings 8:56).  This inheritance of the land is a type of what God has in store for the future. This type is a prophetic picture of the good things God promised to bring, which is fulfilled in Christ.

None other than the God of this universe said that the Good Land would be given as an "everlasting possession". Either God made a mistake or it will only happen after Israel's resurrection. How could Abraham call Canaan his when the next prophecy by Jehovah was that he (Abraham) would die?

1 hour ago, Orion said:

The old Mosaic covenant is done away with by the new covenant made effective by the death burial and resurrection of Yeshua.  No one has ever been, nor will anyone ever be, saved by the works of the law. 

I specifically pointed out that I was not addressing the Lake of Fire. If you want to discuss that I don't mind, but to intimate that I hold this is after what i wrote is strange - to say the least. I think that further debate will not bring anything.

Peace to you too.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

You said: "  I'm not talking about being saved from the Lake of Fire. I'm talking about a DISPERSED people gathered back to their Promised Land and living in peace and prosperity."

Serious question: What would be the point of that?

And if you're making any reference to Israel 1948, I do not see any peace and prosperity. I do not believe this is a blessing from God. God's blessings have to do with life and goodness.

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. God made promises to Abraham and his seed. If He does not keep these promises we can burn our Bibles and meet at the pub. God's honor, and Israel's future are hanging in the balance. I count fifteen promises in Genesis 12 to 22. Zacharias, prophesying 2,000 years later (Lk.1), thought that they were still to be fulfilled.

Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)?

[Orion]

26 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

None other than the God of this universe said that the Good Land would be given as an "everlasting possession". Either God made a mistake or it will only happen after Israel's resurrection. How could Abraham call Canaan his when the next prophecy by Jehovah was that he (Abraham) would die?

God's land promise to Abraham and the nation Israel was fulfilled. But that promise was a shadow to the future promise fulfilled in Yeshua. 

[Orion]

30 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I specifically pointed out that I was not addressing the Lake of Fire. If you want to discuss that I don't mind, but to intimate that I hold this is after what i wrote is strange - to say the least. I think that further debate will not bring anything.

Peace to you too.

I never brought up the lake of fire. No problem. Peace