Christ is Israel

[Anne2]

36 minutes ago, Orion said:

God's land promise to Abraham and the nation Israel was fulfilled. But that promise was a shadow to the future promise fulfilled in Yeshua. 

I would only disagree here in the sense that Abraham, has yet to receive what was promised him.

Acts 7:3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {provided: or, foreseen }

Edited May 23 by Anne2

[farouk]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

I would only disagree here in the sense that Abraham, has yet to receive what was promised him.

Acts 7:3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {provided: or, foreseen }

@Anne2 I do love how Hebrews (as in Hebrews 11.40) shows that 'better' is a keyword to the Epistle.........

[Anne2]

59 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 I do love how Hebrews (as in Hebrews 11.40) shows that 'better' is a keyword to the Epistle.........

Yep, I think the call to be a blessing is not revoked....

[Luther]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. God made promises to Abraham and his seed. If He does not keep these promises we can burn our Bibles and meet at the pub. God's honor, and Israel's future are hanging in the balance. I count fifteen promises in Genesis 12 to 22. Zacharias, prophesying 2,000 years later (Lk.1), thought that they were still to be fulfilled.

Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)?

When you walk into a Christian church you are looking at Abraham and his seed.

Everything leads to Christ. He is the only One worthy of praise, and our focus should be on Him. Not a nation. 

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it bore no fruit.....of repentance. They are still in the same position they were 2000 years ago, and if they don't come to Jesus now ( like the rest of humanity), they will be lost forever.

I am sorry to present such a bleak outlook for the state of Israel. But the good news is that now, or TODAY is the day of salvation. If an Israeli turns from his or her wicked ways and picks up the Cross of Christ, there is rejoicing in heaven ( as with any other person from any nation). We are all in the same predicament.

[Luther]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. God made promises to Abraham and his seed. If He does not keep these promises we can burn our Bibles and meet at the pub. God's honor, and Israel's future are hanging in the balance. I count fifteen promises in Genesis 12 to 22. Zacharias, prophesying 2,000 years later (Lk.1), thought that they were still to be fulfilled.

Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)?

You said: " Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)? "

Yes. I believe that we aren't supposed to be looking for a whole nation of people to become saved, just a remnant.

Isaiah 27:12 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Orion said:

God's land promise to Abraham and the nation Israel was fulfilled. But that promise was a shadow to the future promise fulfilled in Yeshua. 

Not so - on both accounts.
1. As our esteemed sister @Anne2 alluded to, scripture says that that not even the land under his footprint was his.

2. Nor did our Lord Jesus ever rule or own the Good Land.

23 hours ago, Orion said:

I never brought up the lake of fire. No problem. Peace

In this you are correct. You did not mention the Lake of Fire. But could you explain what you meant by "being saved not by the works of Law". Seeing as I mentioned Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and Israel's National restoration by adherence to what Moses was teaching "that day", would you care to comment?

I'm not trying catch you. Deuteronomy 30:1-5 is a prophecy by Moses. There is ample prophecy of Israel's recovery. But nothing of Israel having faith. How then is Israel deemed worthy of recovery? Ezekiel 37 says "this is ALL the house of Israel" in the resurrection and joining of the two houses. But this chapter has no talk of faith - only of God's interaction. The answer lies in Romans 11; 

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins (Rom.11:26–27).

The grammar is clear. ALL Israel is forgiven by Covenant. And God is clear too. He MAY have mercy on whom He pleases. Jesus has paid in full. God may set the conditions and He may judicially forgive the guilty since the sins have once landed on His Son. For God to exact retribution on Israel when One has already paid would be unrighteous.

This maybe new for you, but Romans 9 to 11 is not about the Church being grafted into Israel. Israel is also branches and were cut out. The Root is Holy. Only One is holy - Christ (Lk.1:35). A tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Dan.4, Ezek.31). In the final analysis - New Jerusalem, we have Christ as the City and Tabernacle. The Church is the Walls. Israel are the Gates, and the Nations are divided into those who access to the LEAVES of the Tree of Life /Rev.21). All this is on a "renewed earth" (lit. Gk.).

If you object, take each sentence of mine and see if it is true. If each sentence is true and the sequence is logical, I have a very strong argument - one which you must decide upon. You will find that;
1. Israel are a Nation
2. Israel have been chastised but not forgotten or replaced
3. Israel will be frorgiven
4. Israel will be restored
5. Jesus will live in Jerusalem
6. Israel will serve Christ - Emmanuel - in His needs
7. Israel, sons of Jacob, are of a different SOURCE to the Church - who are sons born of the Spirit

And, 8. Christ is never called Israel

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I would only disagree here in the sense that Abraham, has yet to receive what was promised him.

Acts 7:3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {provided: or, foreseen }

Yes! If Abraham never owned so much as a footprint, then God's Promises must yet to be fulfilled.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Luther said:

When you walk into a Christian church you are looking at Abraham and his seed.

Everything leads to Christ. He is the only One worthy of praise, and our focus should be on Him. Not a nation. 

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it bore no fruit.....of repentance. They are still in the same position they were 2000 years ago, and if they don't come to Jesus now ( like the rest of humanity), they will be lost forever.

I am sorry to present such a bleak outlook for the state of Israel. But the good news is that now, or TODAY is the day of salvation. If an Israeli turns from his or her wicked ways and picks up the Cross of Christ, there is rejoicing in heaven ( as with any other person from any nation). We are all in the same predicament.

Most great doctrines are well documented. The Lord requires two or three scriptures to establish a doctrine. I'll be bold and accept ONE. Can you produce ONE verse that says Israel must believe in a Messiah to be restored?

Now, one admonishment. Don't mix eternal life with national recovery. They are two very different things. But here's a hint. In Mathew 13 our Lord spoke four parables from the boat. He said that these were the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven. In one of them He predicted that a woman would leaven the whole lump. So, taking the Lord seriously, would you expect to find the doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven to be partly true (wheat) and part counterfeit (leaven). If so, is it the Kingdom (out) OF heaven, like in "Thy Kingdom COME ... " (to earth), or is it the "the Kingdom IN heaven".

The woman is found in Revelation 17 - Rome. The woman is destroyed, not by God, but by 10 kings of the earth. Why must these kings destroy the woman? Because the Beast must direct all worship to Himself. Thus, the woman is identified - A RELIGION. And so God's RELIGION is "leavened" by a Roman religion, that is later destroyed in favor of the religion of Nimrod (Babel), what can we expect?

Be honest. If it is "Thy Kingdom COME" then the King will live on earth. Since he is King of Israel, what are the chances that He will live in Jerusalem? And if Jerusalem is where the Great King will live, then the Old Testament with all its hundreds of prophecies IS LITERAL

[Anne2]

32 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Not so - on both accounts.
1. As our esteemed sister @Anne2 alluded to, scripture says that that not even the land under his footprint was his.

Hello AdHoc. I think you might have misunderstood my post. The land covenant of Genesis 15

was fulfilled. 

The day of first fruits is the profession of that

deut 26:1 And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and possessest it, and dwellest therein;
2  That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there.
3  And thou shalt go unto the priest that shall be in those days, and say unto him, I profess this day unto the LORD thy God, that I am come unto the country which the LORD sware unto our fathers for to give us.
4  And the priest shall take the basket out of thine hand, and set it down before the altar of the LORD thy God.
5  And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
6  And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:
7  And when we cried unto the LORD God of our fathers, the LORD heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression:
8  And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:
9  And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey.
10  And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:
11  And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.

Abraham was given no inheritance in that land. The land promised in Genesis 17 is the heavenly inheritance through kings.....

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: " Is 14th May, 1948 even alluded to in scripture? Is not the prophecy directed at the blossoming of the Fig Tree and not the Tree itself? How can the Fig Tree blossom without a Temple? Is not Israel's discipline for 2 days (Hosea 6:2)? "

Yes. I believe that we aren't supposed to be looking for a whole nation of people to become saved, just a remnant.

Isaiah 27:12 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You have uncovered TWO Grand Truths;
1. Ezekiel 27, THE Chapter on Israel's resurrection and recovery, says that "This is ALL the house of Israel"

2. ALL Israel was scattered to the four winds. In Romans 11 "ALL Israel will be saved"

The grand truth of this is that that Promises made to Israel via Abraham are made to his SEED. Some versions have "offspring", but this is not literal. You see, "SEED" covers everyone, even miscarriages - and abortions. Thus, "ALL" is "ALL" - every person conceived from Jacob's line INCLUDING the millions of Jews who died in Egypt, the Wilderness and in the diaspora.

If Jesus is both Root of Jesse and SEED of David, PLUS "son of Abraham" (Matt.1:1), then he is 1. The source of the kingly line, 2. the end of the kingly line, 3. He owns Israel, and 4. He must inherit the Good Land. God's promises are without repentance!