BUSTED - 2 false schemes of interpreting the Apocalypse

[Anne2]

22 minutes ago, Excalibur said:

Do they call themselves vicars of Christ?

The term "vicar" refers to:

• A representative or deputy, particularly in a religious context. 

   

  1
• An ecclesiastical agent, specifically a Church of England incumbent receiving a stipend but not the tithes of a parish. 

   

  1
• A priest in the Church of England who is in charge of a church and the religious needs of the people. 
   

  1
  
  A vicar is a representative, deputy or substitute; anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior (compare "vicarious" in the sense of "at second hand"). Linguistically, vicar is cognate with the English prefix "vice", similarly meaning "deputy". It also refers to a senior priest in the Church of England. … See more

Edited Thursday at 11:44 PM by Anne2

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Excalibur said:

Ironically, your correct statement destroys the foundation of Futurist teaching.  

What marks on hands or foreheads have been used in commerce, and what "noisome sores" have eventuated in association?

It can be observed that prophecies sometimes have an early, regional fulfillment that can be applied to a later, often broader, and even panoramic fulfillment.

This concept is often discussed in theological and historical studies. Some prophecies appear to have multiple fulfillments, where an initial, localized event serves as a foreshadowing of a broader, more significant fulfillment later on. This is sometimes referred to as dual fulfillment or typological prophecy.

Examples:

1. Isaiah 7:14 – The prophecy of a virgin bearing a son was followed by the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (Isaiah 8:3), but later found its ultimate fulfillment in the birth of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:22-23).
2. Destruction of Jerusalem – Jesus predicted the fall of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:1-2), which was fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed the city. Some scholars believe this event also foreshadows a future, more expansive fulfillment.
3. Elijah’s Return – Malachi 4:5 speaks of Elijah returning before the "great and terrible day of the Lord." Jesus identified John the Baptist as fulfilling this prophecy in one sense (Matthew 17:12-13), but also indicated a future fulfillment.

This idea suggests that history often echoes itself, with earlier events serving as patterns for later, more significant occurrences. If you're interested in exploring more, you can check out this source or this one.

[Excalibur]

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

What marks on hands or foreheads have been used in commerce, and what "noisome sores" have eventuated in association?

Interpreting the Apocalypse literally will result in all kinds of ridiculous and false assumptions.

Fun fact: every Ash Wednesday the Pope and his false prophets put the mark of the cross upon the foreheads of the Catholic faithful, using their right hands.  
Coincidence?

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

This concept is often discussed in theological and historical studies.  

Might I suggest you read the historical studies found within the hundreds of commentaries on the Apocalypse written by historicists such as E. B. Elliott, H. Grattan Guinness, Leroy Edwin Froom, Thomas Cartwright, William Fulke, Sir Isaac Newton and others over the past few centuries?

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Some prophecies appear to have multiple fulfillments, 

They “appear to” because Christianity has had that idea drilled into our heads for generations. 

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

 Examples:

1. Isaiah 7:14 – The prophecy of a virgin bearing a son was followed by the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (Isaiah 8:3), but later found its ultimate fulfillment in the birth of Jesus Christ (Matthew 1:22-23).

A) That prophecy was given strictly to Ahaz.  

B) The child born as a specific sign to Ahaz was named Immanuel, just as prophesied (7:14).  

C) Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz was a completely different child who was NOT named Immanuel.  

D) Matt 1:21, 25 clearly say they were to (and did) call the child’s name Jesus, NOT Immanuel.

E) Isa 7:14 was not a prophecy about Jesus. Ahaz was not told that the prophesied child’s name would be Jesus, but Immanuel.

F) The birth narratives were added to Matt and Luke at a later date. (See Raymond Brown’s massive work on the topic).

G) A reasonable case can be made that the Hebrew for “virgin” in Isa 7:14 doesn’t mean a woman who has never had sex.

Your 2nd and 3rd examples are without merit.

Rather than looking for dual fulfillments everywhere, why not just accept the primary fulfillments as the only fulfillments and adjust your theology accordingly?

In my experience, those who see duel fulfillments everywhere are trying to maintain a specific doctrine or belief of theirs. In this particular instance, it’s the virgin birth of Jesus…a belief that led to the RCC doctrine of the “immaculate conception.” (i.e., that Mary herself was born without sin)

Edited 19 hours ago by Excalibur

[Keras]

3 hours ago, Excalibur said:

Might I suggest you read the historical studies found within the hundreds of commentaries on the Apocalypse written by historicists such as E. B. Elliott, H. Grattan Guinness, Leroy Edwin Froom, Thomas Cartwright, William Fulke, Sir Isaac Newton and others over the past few centuries?

I has been impossible for anyone to understand the end time Prophesies before now. Daniel 12:4 & 10

Thsis proved by how there is very little, if any consensus between those who write or preach on the Apocalypse, or the end times. Only a few wise leaders will understand.

God has made it so most people will be shocked and surprised at events as they happen. This will our test by fire, 1 Peter 4:12, to winnow out the chaff; Matthew 3:12

[Excalibur]

7 minutes ago, Keras said:

I has been impossible for anyone to understand the end time Prophesies before now. Daniel 12:4 & 10

Thsis proved by how there is very little, if any consensus between those who write or preach on the Apocalypse, or the end times. Only a few wise leaders will understand.

God has made it so most people will be shocked and surprised at events as they happen. This will our test by fire, 1 Peter 4:12, to winnow out the chaff; Matthew 3:12

Such delusions are going to result in millions of Futurists rejecting Christ when he returns, thinking he’s actually their fabled future antichrist.

[Excalibur]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Thsis proved by how there is very little, if any consensus between those who write or preach on the Apocalypse, or the end times.

Commentators on the Apocalypse for centuries have had a remarkable consensus on much of the book.  This is easily demonstrable, and proves your statement above completely inaccurate. 

[Keras]

5 hours ago, Excalibur said:

Commentators on the Apocalypse for centuries have had a remarkable consensus on much of the book.  This is easily demonstrable, and proves your statement above completely inaccurate. 

What about the many versions of the rapture to heaven theory? The ideas that Revelation is past history, it is just a Spiritual fable, it is only for the Jews and when Jesus Returns, its all over for Eternity. 

I've seen them all, but only on Forums like this one, as the average Christian believer simply says: Whatever Lord, bring it on!  Which is a very poor attitude, that ignores the over 1/4 of the Bible, of unfulfilled Prophecy. 

No commentator that I have read, and that is quite a few, has a scenario which accurately fits with all the Prophetic Word.