Ovedya Posted July 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 wasnt the romam catholic church responsible for the crusades?a group that has give true christians a bad name. Not the RCC alone, but certainly under the guidance and influence of it. There were several "Christian" nations involved in the Crusades, including England and France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted July 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2003 The same way that some are calling false Muslims Muslims, right? See how easy it is to cast aside Christianity's blood history in order to point the finger of blame toward others. John's replies above are all perfect examples. So no one is willing to discuss the attrocities committed by Christians in the name of Jesus Christ? If you have read the WORD's of The Messiah Jesus Then you will know that His true followers would not have taken part in such atrocities. One cannot be a follower of the Messiah and disregard His words. In persisting to claim that these atrocities where the work of "Christians" you are claiming fellowship with people who by their acts have caused the name of Jesus to be blasphemed amongst unbelievers and Jews alike. I am astounded you continue to hold to this position God-man. All Praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted July 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted July 19, 2003 The same way that some are calling false Muslims Muslims, right? See how easy it is to cast aside Christianity's blood history in order to point the finger of blame toward others. John's replies above are all perfect examples. So no one is willing to discuss the attrocities committed by Christians in the name of Jesus Christ? Wrong, God-man, They are true Muslims, and, if they are not, could you please be so kind as to tell us where the 'true' Muslims are living. The truth is not hate. the truth is not inflammatory rhetoric. And, we haven't even got to "d" yet. You mentioned New York City and Morocco as two places that Muslims lived peacefully with other religions. I can't speak for NYC, but let's see about Morrocco. Morocco Islam entered Morocco in the 7th century through invading Arab armies. Today, Morocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted July 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted July 19, 2003 IRAN Population-67,702,199 99.02% Muslim The overthrow of the Shah in 1979 ended Iran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted July 19, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted July 19, 2003 INDONESIA Population-212,991,926 80.3% Muslim This collection of 13,500 islands was the site of one of the few failures of a Communist movement to overthrow a government. In 1965, tensions built to a showdown between Communists and Muslims. When the Muslims emerged victorious, over half a million Communist sympathizers were killed, and many others came to Christ. In 1998 student-led protests brought about the resignation of President Suharto, bringing to power his hand-picked sucessor, Jusuf Habibie. During the upheaval, many Chinese Christians had their homes and shops raided and burned, and many were beaten, raped, and killed. The government forces people to carry an identification card that includes their religious status. The government promotes a belief called Pancasila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted July 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2003 God-man I really don't know the overall purpose of this thread, and I am in no way qualified to respond to the point you are bringing up, however, I would like to make an observation. This thread is a perfect example of belief-system ripple effect, even on this board. In other words, how we express ourselves and beliefs to others makes a lasting impression, whether good or bad. The subjects approached on this board are a prime example. Sometimes by trying to get a point across, the conversation escalates to the point of name calling. All to try to get the other person to accept your beliefs. It's human nature to try to protect what you have been taught, or basically learned, so you throw up walls of protection to guard your belief system. You become stronger in that instead of weaker. Iron sharpens iron, but also on the other side as well. Our very own Israel threads are prime examples of this. Just like in the early Crusades, the marches escalated to the point of violence that has resonated through the centuries. Lines were drawn, beliefs were strengthened, and victims lay by the untold numbers. And unfortunately, it is still continuing. Both sides were damaged. And both sides point fingers. I think it is good that this thread has been started. I, for one, have remembered how important it is to always look to Jesus as my example of how to try to conduct my life. After all, even my little existance will have some kind of ripple affect, for good or bad. And JohnS, my brother, I appreciate your postings as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted July 20, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2003 The same way that some are calling false Muslims Muslims, right? See how easy it is to cast aside Christianity's blood history in order to point the finger of blame toward others. John's replies above are all perfect examples. So no one is willing to discuss the attrocities committed by Christians in the name of Jesus Christ? Hey God-man: I would be perfectly willing to discuss the atrocities committed in the name of Jesus Christ but I'm already none too popular around here, so would probably get in trouble if I did. It's happening today, it didn't stop with the Catholics, and it's a terrible blot on the Christian religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted July 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2003 RE: JohnS commentary on Indonesia Excellent work, John. You do your homework and told the truth about Indonesia, where I used to live. It's true that Muslims burn and pillage the homes of Christians. I have known local Christians, (even in Western friendly towns) flay the skin off of Indonesian Christians. It's grisly, to say the least. They can be not only violent but grossly brutal and insensitive to suffering. My own experience there was one of shock and disbelief. The people there would walk over the bodies of the dying..sick elderly, small children, babies, and the like...while visiting bustling malls with their McDonalds, KFC, and A & W restaurants. You walk into the malls and you can buy all the popular products, including Este Lauder perfume, hosiery and Clinique makeup...(things we can purchase at typical American malls) yet outside, you find death everywhere you look - from orphans abandoned in the streets to forgotten and forsaken elderly people. The government turns a blind eye to Muslim violence against Christians..(they wink at it) and television stations openly broadcast "Jiihad" against the Christians...I know - I heard it firsthand. I was there...it's not hearsay. It's a realilty...they have no qualms about saying, "Kill the infidel"... We would never overtly say on television, "Let's kill the Muslims! Let them die terrible deaths!" Our culture would never permit open and blatant cries for the blood of others, no matter what they've done to us. It's so sad...people insist that Islam is peaceful but I lived amongst them and if they don't steal from you (which happened to me) they are quite hateful. Yes, some are mannered...there's always a "remnant" of people who are socially polite. Most will tolerate westerners because we're good for the economy. And some actually do find us appealing...I guess that's the way humankind is...it's made up of all kinds of people. But when Islam comes into the picture, what I see is anger, hatred and hostility towards anyone who isn't Muslim. That was my firsthand experience. Many Indonesians assumed that I was Muslim, however. I didn't cover my head but I did dress modestly and behave in a socially respectable way...some were surprised I was "Christian" because they thought I acted properly. They get MTV beamed over satelite there and they assume all Americans are Christians and all Americans are like MTV...they equate MTV with Christianity...because both are white and western. Television shapes their impression of who and what we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted July 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Author Share Posted July 20, 2003 The Crusades lasted over 200 years. During that time Jews and Muslims were slaughtered in the name of the Christian God. The point of my starting this thread was not just to discuss this terrible time in Christian history, but also to balance out the posts against Islam a bit. When you examine this period of history you come to the realization of a couple of things: First, you realize that among human invention, religion is probably responsible for the most bloodshed, hatred, violence, and division in history. Secondly, you come to the stark realization that there is absolutely nothing that we today can do about it, except learn and change. Looking at this period of history from the outside such as we are today, it is easy to say, "Man, what were they thinking," without considering the fact that we are very likely to repeat such attrocities today. The fallen human factor has never gone away. It always lies under the surface, and lies in wait to enact the most terrible and vicious harm upon us. Islam is no different than Christianity in this respect. Within Islam is very same propensity for such violence and attrocity. So who are we to point the finger of blame and say, "Islam is evil"? Islam has had that very right for the past 800 years! As we have observed with our own history, it is most often not the faithful who are responsible for these bloody attrocities, but rather those false believers blinded by the lusts of their own flesh and religion. As believers it is absolutely right for us to say that Islam is not of the Lord, that it is a false faith founded upon false history and false doctrines. But let us not forget that Islam is predominantly a peaceful religion, just as Christianity is predominantly a peaceful religion. How could one expect to evengelize a Muslim unless peace is established as a foundation? The kind of hatred being displayed by Christians today toward other world faiths is a trajedy! It is shameful how elitist and prideful we can be toward people of other faiths, when we are called to be peacemakers by the Lord Jesus Himself! Let us go out to find the sons of peace with an olive branch, rather than stab at them with knives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catsmeow Posted July 20, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 439 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 7,315 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 356 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2003 God-man, I sure wish you read my post. I lived in a Muslim country - in fact Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world! Islam is not peaceful. It is a false religion. Most Muslims I've met are indifferent, some are socially polite, and many are interested in being "peaceful" if there's some economic benefit. Then there's a growing number of trouble-makers who stir up the indifferent and get them all excited. If you live in a poor, third world country, it doesn't take much to get rioting...they live in poverty have no sense of purpose or direction...so they're easy to control and manipulate. No, Islam is NOT a peaceful religion. Brother, the Koran is very clear that the Muslim has the right to conquer infidels, particularly Christians and especially Jews; the Koran has ordained that men can have up to four wives and is allowed to beat them into submission; when an infidel is conquered, his possessions may be taken as booty; and he can be killed or kept as a slave. That IS in the Koran. Is that what we call, "peaceful"? The Taliban (extreme form of Islam) is very clear that women are chattel that have no rights, including the right to laugh in public or receive an education. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any religion that is devoid of the Holy Spirit of God operating in an individual's life, can not control the natural urges of the flesh... Remember, when we were in sin, we were helpless to change. It isn't until we are endowed with the Holy Spirit that we are enabled to have victory against the flesh, which is sinful by it's very nature. Look, the people who led the Crusades were NOT Christians ...but they did give Christ a bad name. If they WERE true Christians, the Holy Spirit would have restrained them; their consciences would have burned within them. As it was, they had no conscience. They acted according to flesh...no Holy Spirit to convict them. Likewise, anyone who is not born of the Spirit is likely to be an easy pawn of Satan. Apart from new believers and the simple, established Christians will question anything that smacks of heresy or a distortion of scripture; they will balk at involving themselves with anything that clearly goes against what the Holy Spirit convicts them of. Consider the Proverb: The fear of the Lord keeps one from evil. The Crusaders were not in any way controlled from doing evil; there was no fear of God; no moral conscience; no sense of doing wrong. In fact, no presense of the Holy Spirit. It did make the entire TRUE Church look badly. Godman, the Muslim DO NOT have a Holy Spirit in them. The Law of God may be written on their hearts but the Holy Spirit dwells within the heart of a believer. How can anyone have the Holy Spirit if they don't accept the One, the Christ who was sent by the Father. They can't. So their sin nature remains in tact. I am saying that any and all people - Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim...do not have the Holy Spirit in them because they do not have Christ. Likewise, anyone who calls himself a Christian but does not fear God or is unrestrained by the Holy Spirit, is likely not a true believer but a "tares" among the wheat...and likely to make all true believers look badly. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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