Choice of Denomination

[Iryssa]

I would imagine you also have tossed the idea of a trained and educated pastorate, fellowship of believers and church authority and discipline.

*thrusts her arm eagerly into the air like a schoolkid* oh! oh! I haven't! I quite agree that there needs to be all of those.

*laugh* Anyway...carry on, if you must...

[st. Worm]

Darn it Iryssa, I wish I could be as creative and colorful as you!

[MrSealedEternal]

This "babylonian doctrine" that you guys keep repeating is obviously part of the canned program you have bought into. I have heard less contrived arguments from a 14 year old JW on my front porch.

Very sad and I say this with no disrespect or malice but what you are advocating is basically the same reasoning as every flying saucer cult that came down the pike. Its seems somewhat arrogant to me that you so easily toss 2000 years of church history out and smugly break out this Babylonian doctrine phrase at the drop of a hat. Cute bumper sticker theology hardly sets me back on my heels.

I would imagine you also have tossed the idea of a trained and educated pastorate, fellowship of believers and church authority and discipline. I think you have finally arrived at neo-fundamentalism without even knowing it.

Have you not seen the huge obelisk in the center of the Vatican that represents the phallic shaft of baal? Do you not see the pagan symbolism all over the vatican? Don't you know that Pontificus Maximus is the name of the leader of the Babylonian mystery religions? Do you know that all of the statues at the vatican are of pagan gods who's names have been changed to biblical ones, and many pre-date Christ?

If you don't see Mystery Babylon written all over the Roman Church you must be willfully ignorant of the facts. It is Babylonianism masquerading as Christianity. It is the exact same religion as the Pharisees except with a Christian veneer rather than a Jewish one.

Mr SE

[st. Worm]

Mr SE,

I am not a RC so I really don't pay much attention to Vatican artwork. I guess the next logical question from me is what in the world does that have to do with me or anything I have said on this board? Please excuse me, but I am somewhat conspiracy theoried out.

[Iryssa]

Darn it Iryssa, I wish I could be as creative and colorful as you!

*laugh* it gets me into trouble sometimes...especially when I'm feeling goofy like I am tonight.

[MrSealedEternal]

Mr SE,

I am not a RC so I really don't pay much attention to Vatican artwork. I guess the next logical question from me is what in the world does that have to do with me or anything I have said on this board? Please excuse me, but I am somewhat conspiracy theoried out.

Those are facts that you can check if you want the truth, and I didn't give you any theories. When you said 2000 years of "church history" I assumed you were talking about your mother church since Lutheranism hasn't been around that long. Of course neither has Catholicism but that's besides the point. Your religion is not nearly as openly Babylonian, but has still carried on many of the traditions.

Mr SE

[st. Worm]

Give yours time, Mr. SE.

I'm sure if your movement survives it will be tainted with tradition soon enough. Then where will you go?

[MrSealedEternal]

Give yours time, Mr. SE.

I'm sure if your movement survives it will be tainted with tradition soon enough. Then where will you go?

My point is that you say you trust "church history." The problem with that is your definition of "Church" as I have already shown you. Why would you trust in the history of a religion that is pagan and has nothing to do with Christ's ekklesia? The Church that has killed countless true believers by labeling them heretics. I believe your guy Martin Luther's message was to trust in God's word above man's religion, or something to that effect. Therefore, why look to Catholic history for the answers above the Word of God?

Mr SE

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

quote:

"The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.'

Are you saying that Christ did not give His church (the visible church) special authority that he did not give individual believers? I am having a real hard time understanding the anti-denominationalism that exists on this board. Nowhere in Scripture is the church described as some here are attempting to portray it whereby each individual determines himself how he will worship, what he will believe or who he/she is to submit to. To say we are to submit only to Christ ignoring the authority vested by Christ in the church and its leaders seems a distortion and a nice way to be a rebel in a way that was never really intended. Yes, sometimes its time to leave a church that has left Christ but that does not mean we go back into the wilderness.

Hey Worm you misunderstood what I was saying so I will try to Clarify what I mean Yes Jesus did set up his church, now who really is that faithful and discreet slave ??? Wouldn't you agree that each would answer differently depending on ones different denomination. exsample Catholics would say their clergy is the one and of course you as a Lutheran would say the Lutheran clergy, however for the both this applicable that neither do you fallow the Catholic church authority and they do not reconize the Lutheran authority. you say that nowhere in scripture that each individual determines for himself how he will worship or what one believes or is to submit to. In this you are much mistaken and here is the proof Consider please ROMANS 14. 5 - 12 Which says One man judges one day as though above another, another man judges one day as all others, ( now notice what Paul says here ) LET EACH MAN BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND. For he who observes the day observes it to the LORD. Also he who eats, eats to the LORD for he gives thanks to God and he who does not eat does not eat to the LORD and also gives thanks to the LORD. None of us infact with regards to ones self and neither does anyone die with regards to ones self. For both if we live we live to the LORD and if we die we die to the LORD, Therefore (I say again) both if we live and if we die we belong to the LORD. For this is the very reason Christ died and came to life agian so that he may be Lord over both the dead and the living.( now Worm this next part I would have you pay paticuler attention to ) vers 10 But why do you judge your brother OR why do you look down on your brother. For we shall all stand before the judgement seat God, for as it is written AS I LIVE says the LORD every knee will bend down and every tongue will make open acknowlegment to GOD. So then since each of us will give his own account before God let us stop judging one another any more. I have more proof Worm however at the moment i must log off so I am not done just yet.........

[st. Worm]

"My point is that you say you trust "church history." The problem with that is your definition of "Church" as I have already shown you. Why would you trust in the history of a religion that is pagan and has nothing to do with Christ's ekklesia? The Church that has killed countless true believers by labeling them heretics. I believe your guy Martin Luther's message was to trust in God's word above man's religion, or something to that effect. Therefore, why look to Catholic history for the answers above the Word of God?"

Mr. SE,

Actually you have distorted what I said (imagine that). I said the church has authority, not the ultimate authority of Scripture. Unfortunately you want to classify all views but your own as "man made religion". Of course that view implies that you are superior to everyone else in your ability to interpret the Bible. I doubt that is the case. Martin Luther did not advocate a free for all where every man determines for himself what the Bible means. That is nothing more than religious anarchy which is what you appear to have. Your continued disparagement of Christ's church is sad while still amazing. And make no mistake about it that is what you are doing. Like it or not the RC church is part of your heritage. Now whether that part of the church has been removed from the Vine is another question but your view that only you have the absolute truth absolutely about the Bible is one you should examine yourself carefully over.

Edited December 28, 2005 by st. Worm