Choice of Denomination

[Smalcald]

"My view of the so-called trinity has commonality with Paul, Peter, James and John. I refer anyone to check those epistles which have formulaic greetings. These clearly show that they did not accept that the Holy Spirit was part of the Godhead they worshipped. I have never heard a trinitarian explain away this fact. "

Yet Christ tells us Himself to Baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. It simply does not wash that the Holy Spirit and Christ are somehow "less" than God and worthy of our worship and praise. How could they be less? If they are not divine, then who or what are they? If they are divine, yet not part of God you are a polytheist, worshipping many Gods.

There is one God creator of Heaven and earth, and we are to worship ONLY that God, unless you have forgotten the Ten Commandments. Now if Jesus is not part of that God, not equal to that God, then He is not worth very much to us, because only God can forgive your sins. Jesus was crucified for blaspheme, but why did the Jewish leaders believe this? They believed it because it was true, unless Jesus was indeed God.

But I do think you point out the very real need for denominations so people can see what groups really believe, it would be very easy I think to wander into a group which denied the divinity of Christ.

[Waimahia]

Hi Smalcald,

I have NEVER denied that Jesus is God.

there are two personages in the Godhead; God the Father and God the Son. This was clearly the belief of those Apostles who started their epistles with the then-common formulaic greetings in the name of their God. You will in five minutes of Bible study note that they DO NOT include the Holy Spirit as part of the God in which they were sending their letters. What an insult to the Holy Spirit if it is actually part of the Godhead.

I notice that people do not actually ever address that simple point.

Similarly they never address the abominable, murderous way in which the trinity heresy came to be part of Roman Catholic doctrine as clearly taught in any decent church history which has no axe to grind on the matter.

Most trinitarians dance their way around these clear issues and some, like St Worm, resort to personal insult.

Kia Ora,

Waimahia

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

One of the main problems with your biblicist and fundamentalist view is that you seem to reject all authority concerning the Bible except your own. The church has rejected your view (Arianism and modelism) about the nature of God and the Trinity has a heresy for quite a long time. In other words you can have your one little interpretation of the Bible and creat your own religion but to reject the doctrine of the Trinity makes you a non-Christian. While the church is not the ultimate authority it is still authoritative. Any discussion about theology proper must begin with the nature of God and the Trinity. And any discussion about Jesus must begin with the proper Jesus who was the Godman, 100% God and man.

What training have you had in interpretating the Bible? More than St Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and every other credible church father who embraced the biblical Trinity? Can you read the OT and NT in the original languages? Are you in your arrogance saying that for 2000 years the church is wrong and YOU are right? The vast burden of proof is not on others to produce evidence of the Trinity, but instead on you to show why the Scriptures do not reveal the Trinity and why the entire orthodox church for 2000 years is now suddenly wrong just because you say so. Sad to say, some popular teachers such as TD Jakes hold a heretical view of the Trinity just as you apparently do and therefore worship a different God and different Jesus than the rest of us.

In terms of biblical example, although the Trinity is evident throughout the Bible, the great example that is so easy to see is the one described at the baptism of Jesus where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly revealed in three distinct persons. I would urge you to read the vast amount of writing about the Trinity that exists by orthodox Christian teachers and move away from the heretics you are now embracing.

well Worm i am sorry that you feel the way you do I understand why it is you must attack my faith in Jesus being the Son of God, because clearly you arent able to answer my qestions from a biblicale perspective but must lean upon your unispired man made interputations. I hope that one day you will open your eyes to the truth but since you you say you see your sin still remains. What sin you may say. The sin of judging anothers faith and saying they are not Christians, in doing so you have presummed the judgement of God and so with the judgement you are judging you will be judged. I guess I should not be surprised by this since you clearly keep going beyond His Word. Well Worm if you want help understanding the bible pray to God he will help you if you repent, and stop thinking like a Worm.......

PEACE TO YOU BROTHER

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

Hi Smalcald,

I have NEVER denied that Jesus is God.

there are two personages in the Godhead; God the Father and God the Son. This was clearly the belief of those Apostles who started their epistles with the then-common formulaic greetings in the name of their God. You will in five minutes of Bible study note that they DO NOT include the Holy Spirit as part of the God in which they were sending their letters. What an insult to the Holy Spirit if it is actually part of the Godhead.

I notice that people do not actually ever address that simple point.

Similarly they never address the abominable, murderous way in which the trinity heresy came to be part of Roman Catholic doctrine as clearly taught in any decent church history which has no axe to grind on the matter.

Most trinitarians dance their way around these clear issues and some, like St Worm, resort to personal insult.

Hey Waimahia dont swet it, all I did was ask for my questions to be answerd because I am really wanting to come to a conclusion on these things but like you I also keep getting attacked, well even Jesus said you would know them by their fruits. You right Trinitarians do dance their way around the issues well most the ones i have tryed to talk to and some like Worm try to put others faith in to question and talking down to those that dont see eye to eye with his way of thinking, however little does he know by doing so he is allowing satan to get the beter of him, and instead of reaching he is quit repling. Oh well I hope someone will be able to answer my questions in a way that trully reflects a Christian aditude.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

"My view of the so-called trinity has commonality with Paul, Peter, James and John. I refer anyone to check those epistles which have formulaic greetings. These clearly show that they did not accept that the Holy Spirit was part of the Godhead they worshipped. I have never heard a trinitarian explain away this fact. "

Yet Christ tells us Himself to Baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. It simply does not wash that the Holy Spirit and Christ are somehow "less" than God and worthy of our worship and praise. How could they be less? If they are not divine, then who or what are they? If they are divine, yet not part of God you are a polytheist, worshipping many Gods.

There is one God creator of Heaven and earth, and we are to worship ONLY that God, unless you have forgotten the Ten Commandments. Now if Jesus is not part of that God, not equal to that God, then He is not worth very much to us, because only God can forgive your sins. Jesus was crucified for blaspheme, but why did the Jewish leaders believe this? They believed it because it was true, unless Jesus was indeed God.

But I do think you point out the very real need for denominations so people can see what groups really believe, it would be very easy I think to wander into a group which denied the divinity of Christ.

And more than likely you wont get it explained just told your not a Christian and talk down to.

[st. Worm]

For those here who question the Deity of the Holy Spirit why does Peter in Acts 5 equate lying to the Holy Spirit with lying to God?

I meant no personal insult to anyone. If I mentioned terms such as heretic and non-Christian, I am merely echoing the pronouncements of the church that has dealt with this issue for a very long time.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

For those here who question the Deity of the Holy Spirit why does Peter in Acts 5 equate lying to the Holy Spirit with lying to God?

I meant no personal insult to anyone. If I mentioned terms such as heretic and non-Christian, I am merely echoing the pronouncements of the church that has dealt with this issue for a very long time.

even the Pharisees went beyond the word of God and began teaching the word of men as doctrine and thats why those that fallowed them became a subject for Gahena twice as much

think about it Worm

[MrSealedEternal]

It is terribly sad that you would deny your children the saving grace of baptism. As Peter says the promise is for you and your children. Calling sacraments an unbiblical word is like calling the Trinity an unbiblical word. Its also seems highly unlikely that the households mentioned in the NT where all were baptized were households that included no children or infants.

Your belief about baptism as a work of obedience following a profession of faith is in reality the good work that you attempt to apply to me. There is nothing in the NT that rejects baptism for infants. Infants can have faith as evidenced by the unborn infant that Elizabeth was carrying.

Be baptized and wash away your sins.

I would suggest Luther's SC with explanations if you wish to truly learn about baptism from a Lutheran perspective instead of parrotting that it is a good work as you have been misled to believe.

I was in a Lutheran Church for almost a year, until I studied the Bible and discovered that you have a different "gospel." Sacraments are unbiblical, and the entire concept is contrary to the true gospel of God's grace. You can't reconcile these two completely opposite ideas of grace and works, therefore the idea of sacraments cannot be reconciled to scripture. Everyone in the Bible who was water Baptized had already been born again, before the ceremony took place.

You're "religion" is nothing more than Romanism with fewer sacraments. Romanism is nothing more than Judaized Babylonian Kabbalism, with a Christian veneer. In other words, New Testament Phariseeism. You can't deal with scripture. because scripture exposes your religion.

Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

There's no possible way to fit sacraments into here without contradicting God's Word.

Act 10:43,44,47 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

They received the Holy Spirit by listening to the message and believing. They hadn't even gone near the water yet.

Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You're good deeds can't save you. You need to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, by trusting fully in Christ, apart from your works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 4:4-6 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

You've been severed from Christ by trying to save yourself through religious works. You have denied Him and His sacrifice which He performed once for all, and are trying to save yourself by a set of man made laws.

Mr SE

[st. Worm]

quote:

"You've been severed from Christ by trying to save yourself through religious works. You have denied Him and His sacrifice which He performed once for all, and are trying to save yourself by a set of man made laws."

Amazing. 2000 years of the church and all of us who have biblical sacraments and who trust the gospel for our salvation are not saved, but you come along in 2005 and re-invent the church and tell us all we were wrong. Wow. I sit here at my keyboard in awe. Perhaps we should just worship you and forget about Jesus.

[st. Worm]

quote:

"even the Pharisees went beyond the word of God and began teaching the word of men as doctrine and thats why those that fallowed them became a subject for Gahena twice as much

think about it Worm "

Are you saying that the only truth is that which is found in the Bible? Very sad. You should think about that.

Also you did not answer my BIBLICAL question.