64% of Americans Say NSA Monitoring OK

[Guest ConstantComment]

As another poster put it though, you will have a another president a few years down the road who may have it out for christians and they can use he NSA to seek out christian dissidents.

I think I may have been that "other poster" on another thread, and while I stand by that, during a time of war I think there has to be compromises made (for a limited time) by citizens for the good of all. I have been hearing that "what if they turn against all the Christians" argument for as long as I have been a Christian--2 years now--and frankly I don't get it. Now, please...PLEASE...I am not trying to start an argument here, but rather just making an observation and a comment. The existance of our Faith does not depend on who is in the White House. Christianity is not that weak that it needs a Presidential sanction to exist; it did, after all, survive Nero (the ruler of Rome, not the software), Diocletian and the Roman Catholic Church (lol). Jesus promised that we would experience "tribulation" in this world and that we would be hated because of Him. And if history has taught us anything it is that the Church thrives during times of persecution and that she has never done well during times of peace, properity and popularity. Right now, we have all three. So far, in this country, we have been blessed, I for one think it will continue, but not indefinitely.

Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls, I can tell you that after working in the Pentegon for a few years and being involved in a very minor way with what we now call "homeland security" issues, the staff of men and women there are people like you and me--Americans with families, who pay taxes, shop at Wal Mart ( ) and go to church. They are not Nazis looking for Jesus under every rock. My superiors and supervisors (George Tenent was one, the others I can't name here) were men and women of distinction and some highly decorated soldiers who would, in an instant, give their lives for this country.

All I can say is not everybody hates Christians and surely to goodness your faith is stronger than that!

During a time of war the president has 15 days instead of 3.

[nebula]

Granny? Kinda silly to make such a statement when there are sooo many things that would be worthy for political or economic gain. It's interesting that you went right for the most absurd instead of the most likely. Again, the point being that we just don't know because of lack of oversight.

Well, because everyone is screaming about their personal freedoms being taken away, I went for the most personal.

People often use exaduration to make a point.

Tell me, do you have any reason to fear the government monitoring YOU?

You had it right until the sentence that started with "Now, do you trust..." After that you assumed more people are involved than actually are. The FISA court isn't like "Night Court". You also assume that everyone EXCEPT the administration could be untrust worthy.

Wou;d you please enlighten us on how it works, then?

How do you know? At first, Nixon also claimed he was doing it for national security. You don't know who was being spied on because there was no judicial oversight.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back you fear that monitoring of calls has been done on anyone other than suspected terrorists?

(And I highlighted "fear" intentionally - for it seems you have an anger/mistrust based on fear.)

[Guest ConstantComment]

I'm sure this will get deleted, as most of the opposing posts are but here goes anyway...

...Now, do you trust the judge, court reporter, filing clerk, lawyers, court security guard etc, to keep quiet about where the information came from?

One leak, just one could KILL the informant and his WHOLE family. . . .

Excellent point, Giaour!

Yeah, the NSA just runs down to the local courthouse in whatever neighborhood they happen to be in and grab any old judge and the people who work there handle top secret papers... They would wouldn't use a SPECIAL court designed to handle such information...

... Christianity is not that weak that it needs a Presidential sanction to exist; it did, after all, survive Nero (the ruler of Rome, not the software), Diocletian and the Roman Catholic Church (lol). Jesus promised that we would experience "tribulation" in this world and that we would be hated because of Him. And if history has taught us anything it is that the Church thrives during times of persecution and that she has never done well during times of peace, properity and popularity. . . .

Preach it, sister!

The end isn't here yet and could be ANOTHER thousand years away. So in the mean time, let's work on the assumption that we'd like to continue with our laws and form of government in tact.

Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls, I can tell you that after working in the Pentegon for a few years and being involved in a very minor way with what we now call "homeland security" issues, the staff of men and women there are people like you and me--Americans with families, who pay taxes, shop at Wal Mart ( ) and go to church. They are not Nazis looking for Jesus under every rock. My superiors and supervisors (George Tenent was one, the others I can't name here) were men and women of distinction and some highly decorated soldiers who would, in an instant, give their lives for this country.

Thank-you!!!!!!!!!

I hope folks are listening and take this to heart.

"Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls," in other words, you have no idea what happens behind closed doors and in secret yet you're willing to make assumptions on how things might work. You mean guys like Oliver North who did what they were told because they thought it was right? People do things that they think or are told, is "best" for the country. It doesn't make them bad people, just wrong sometimes.

All I can say is not everybody hates Christians and surely to goodness your faith is stronger than that!

Yes, let us hope we are not cowards to "the principalites, powers and rulers in the heavenlies."

It does seem that some people are, though, doesn't it?

Are you all going to let 9/11 drive you from your freedoms here that so many people have died to preserve..... are you not willing to give as you expect our military to....... if not then you don't deserve to be in this country and it is doomed to failure in a very short course.

What freedom has been taken fom you, Sam?

That's the worst argument ever used. If you'd have said that to the Japanese who were locked away during WWII the day before they were rounded up they would have said "None"...

It's not just the president who believes his actions were legal. People involved with and having connections with the people involved are telling me that the monitoring done as it was done is legal and justifiable in a war time situation. (And I'm not talking about people you see through the TV.)

So, until or unless illegality is established, you are bearing false witness by our claim as if it were fact.

No, the legality is simply being discussed which some people would rather not. Some people would rather just let the President and all the people around him do whatever they want. Even though we see that not everyone around the President makes the "best" choices.

Happy New Year!!

[nebula]

Yeah, the NSA just runs down to the local courthouse in whatever neighborhood they happen to be in and grab any old judge and the people who work there handle top secret papers... They would wouldn't use a SPECIAL court designed to handle such information...

"Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls," in other words, you have no idea what happens behind closed doors and in secret yet you're willing to make assumptions on how things might work. You mean guys like Oliver North who did what they were told because they thought it was right? People do things that they think or are told, is "best" for the country. It doesn't make them bad people, just wrong sometimes.

So CC -

What is your expertise on the matter?

You have chided Marnie, who was actually in the building, which means she knows more than most people, yet you speak as "someoen who knows it all, it seems.

So please, enlighten us further. What makes you an expert on what is best for this country's defenses, how things are run, how best to track terorists, etc.?

Tell us please, how should the government keep this country safe?

[Guest ConstantComment]

Well, because everyone is screaming about their personal freedoms being taken away, I went for the most personal.

People often use exaduration to make a point.

Tell me, do you have any reason to fear the government monitoring YOU?

YES, I do. Absolutely, it's called my private life and it's none of the governments business. These riduculous arguments like "what freedoms have you lost" are always forgotten once you actually ARE affected, then you'll be crying that no one was watching while, little by little the government takes more and more. "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" how many times does that phrase have to be retold?

Wou;d you please enlighten us on how it works, then?

.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/fisa/

.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back you fear that monitoring of calls has been done on anyone other than suspected terrorists? (And I highlighted "fear" intentionally - for it seems you have an anger/mistrust based on fear.)

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back your lack of concern that monitoring of calls has been done on anyone besides suspected terrorists? I think THAT is the point.

I do mistrust this administration, and the last, and the one before that and the one before that et al. because that's part of what being a patriot is, questioning the actions of your government to keep them from abusing their power. You should fear your government because when you stop, that's when they think they can get away with whatever they want.

Yes, I am a bit angry. I'm angry because I voted for Bush the first time and he's done nothing but make me regret that decision.

[Guest ConstantComment]

Yeah, the NSA just runs down to the local courthouse in whatever neighborhood they happen to be in and grab any old judge and the people who work there handle top secret papers... They would wouldn't use a SPECIAL court designed to handle such information...

"Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls," in other words, you have no idea what happens behind closed doors and in secret yet you're willing to make assumptions on how things might work. You mean guys like Oliver North who did what they were told because they thought it was right? People do things that they think or are told, is "best" for the country. It doesn't make them bad people, just wrong sometimes.

So CC -

What is your expertise on the matter?

Can't tell you it's top secret.

You have chided Marnie, who was actually in the building, which means she knows more than most people, yet you speak as "someoen who knows it all, it seems.

Never claimed to know it all, just more than most.

So please, enlighten us further. What makes you an expert on what is best for this country's defenses, how things are run, how best to track terorists, etc.?

I told you, it's top secret.

Tell us please, how should the government keep this country safe?

That's a discussion for another thread. But obviously we aren't much better off than we were in 2001.

Edited January 1, 2006 by ConstantComment

[Marnie]

"Having said that, let me say that while my experience with the NSA was limited to memos and phone calls," in other words, you have no idea what happens behind closed doors and in secret yet you're willing to make assumptions on how things might work. You mean guys like Oliver North who did what they were told because they thought it was right? People do things that they think or are told, is "best" for the country. It doesn't make them bad people, just wrong sometimes.

I am not sure who said that, I couldn't follow the thread. In what I was involved with, you didn't make ASSumptions, for obvious reasons. I, in fact, have a pretty good idea how this works, thank you. Some of your (that's the editorial "your") comments have been humorous to say the least, but given my reputation for so easily offending the delicate sensibilities of some who post to this forum, I have kept my big mouth shut on the issue.

My father was intimately acquainted with Col. North by the way, and he was a frequent visitor to our home. Don't denigrate the name of great American when you know so little of the facts. If all you know about the Iran-Contra affair is what you saw on the kangaroo court back in the late 80's, you know about 25% of the whole story. The corridors of Washington are far more complex than you could imagine, and what the media thinks they know is more often than not incorrect. Sometimes things are said and done for political expediency, and people are offered up as "sacrificial offerings" to the media to shut them up. I love the free press, but in times of war, loose lips sink ships, and a good disinformation campaign can save lives in the long run. It's cut throat, dirty and not fair but that's politics in a free country.

[Guest stevej]

When I was in college had an old professor in Political Science. He said that civil liberties end where my nose begins. He had a huge nose. Seriously tho, if nothing hit us in the nose before 9/11 surely the events of 9/11 and activities since would dictate that my nose begins where a legitimate terrorist wants to punch. Applying that theory just a little further, No one should have the right to attack me or my countrymen. That is where my countrymens and my rights start and finish. If it takes a little unorthodox monitoring sure my civil liberties are semi violated...but in the interest of national security I would support what the NSA is doing.

[Giaour]

Whenever there is government paperwork involved, there are secretaries, filing clerks, security guards etc. who are privy to this type of information.

I was a Postmaster for 15 years. Everything has to be made in triplicate and sent to several different offices for approval. There are forms to order new forms. It is a huge paper trail. With each piece of paper, there is a potential leak of information.

I just think that the more who know, the more potential for a leak.

I prefer the President do what we elected him to do and that is protect us from the enemy.

It's not like they are tapping into my calls to family.

They were tapping overseas calls to terrorists. Big difference.

[nebula]

So CC -

What is your expertise on the matter?

Can't tell you it's top secret.

You have chided Marnie, who was actually in the building, which means she knows more than most people, yet you speak as "someoen who knows it all, it seems.

Never claimed to know it all, just more than most.

So please, enlighten us further. What makes you an expert on what is best for this country's defenses, how things are run, how best to track terorists, etc.?

I told you, it's top secret.

Oh, so you are a CNN reporter?!

I thought your comments sounded familiar!