the OTHERS crucified with Christ

[ValiantForTruth]

Since some current conversations have been pertaining to the crucifixion, I thought it would be a good time to ask, "How many were crucified WITH Christ?"

2 or 4 ?

Tradition has taught us that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. That is what I was taught, and no doubt you too. We see this depicted frequently in Christian art by depicting the crucifixion with 3 crosses. But is tradition likeminded with scripture, or does scripture back up tradition?

For example...when Jesus was being led to Calvary, two thieves were led with him.

But in other places we read that AFTER they parted his garments and cast lots, two more were crucified with him.

Also, in one reference when Jesus is being rebuked, one said "remember me..."

But in another reference it says BOTH cast the same in his teeth.

What say you?

I say there were 4 and scripture backs it up!!

VFT

[apothanein kerdos]

WHy don't you give us the references to scripture.

[eagleswings]

i have only heard one other person ever ask this question and that poor person had picked up some false information somewhere and was very confused.. as the above post said back this up with some scripture....

[Giaour]

Matthew 27

38. Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

[ValiantForTruth]

WHy don't you give us the references to scripture.

How many rebuked Jesus?

Matthew 27:39-44

39) And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40) And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42) He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39-43

39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Timing ...... (when were they crucified?)

Luke 23:26

26) And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27) And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29) For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30) Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31) For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

32) And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33) And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Matthew 27:33-38

33) And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,

34) They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

35) And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

36) And sitting down they watched him there;

37) And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

38) Then [after all that] were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

TWO were led with him, TWO more came later.

TWO railed on him, and of the other two, ONE railed and ONE did not.

VFT

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

You dont see the point here.Remember you are reading two accounts of the same thing.In the beginning ,both thieves railed but later the one thief came to the realization that CHRIST was the SON of GOD.The one thief saw and heard things that convicted his heart while hanging there next to JESUS.The scripures dont lie,you just have to go deep sometimes to find the answers

[Leonard]

So, how is old Victor Paul Weirwille (spelling?) anyway?

In my opinion, there is no telling how many might have suffered crucifixion that day. Literature of the time says sometimes dozens were crucified at the same time. Just because one account seems to concentrate on one set of fellows, and another account seems to tell us about others, the object of interest for the Church has always been that TWO started off reviling Him, and one became 'The Repentent Thief' I'm sure you've heard of.

So despite the oddball fixation of The Way, International, and all their heretical doctrines, they could be technically correct on this point (for reasons others pointed to above, they might not be, either....), but no great Doctrine of the Church has ever been based on numbers of 'thieves,' 'malefactors,' or ANYONE else, or ANY NUMBER OF PERSONS crucified on Galgotha, on ANY particular day, except Jesus Christ.

So let's just not make it a more important thing than it really is: A moot point.

[ValiantForTruth]

You dont see the point here.Remember you are reading two accounts of the same thing.In the beginning ,both thieves railed but later the one thief came to the realization that CHRIST was the SON of GOD.The one thief saw and heard things that convicted his heart while hanging there next to JESUS.The scripures dont lie,you just have to go deep sometimes to find the answers

I agree, the scriptures do not lie. But if your explanation is correct, then how do you account for the fact that TWO malefactors were LED WITH HIM, and they crucified one on either side.

...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...

THEN, AFTER they crucified them, they offered Jesus vinegar, parted his garments, cast lots, sat down and watched him, got permission for a sign, made the sign, hung it up. AFTER ALL THAT - which takes time - THEN they crucified TWO THIEVES, one on either side.

How can this be referring to the SAME two who were led with him?

Scriptures tell us that both Thieves railed on him,

...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief...

but only one Malefactor cast the same in his teeth, the other did not.

...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief...

Both Thieves cast the same in his teeth

One Malefactor railed on Jesus, the other did not.

Why should I believe your explanation? How does tradition support scripture?

VFT

[Avodah]

What you are saying sounds very much like "the way international" and I am telling you...leave those teachings and find the truth. What they teach is so far off the word it's scary! They take scripture out of context and then twist it to fit into what they believe.

[ValiantForTruth]

In my opinion, there is no telling how many might have suffered crucifixion that day.

What is your opinion based on? Tradition, or scripture?

Literature of the time says sometimes dozens were crucified at the same time.

I have no doubt that is true, but what does the scriptures say about this day in particular?

Just because one account seems to concentrate on one set of fellows, and another account seems to tell us about others, the object of interest for the Church has always been that TWO started off reviling Him, and one became 'The Repentent Thief' I'm sure you've heard of.

Why? (a simple question)

So despite the oddball fixation of The Way, International, and all their heretical doctrines, they could be technically correct on this point (for reasons others pointed to above, they might not be, either....), but no great Doctrine of the Church has ever been based on numbers of 'thieves,' 'malefactors,' or ANYONE else, or ANY NUMBER OF PERSONS crucified on Galgotha, on ANY particular day, except Jesus Christ.

My question has nothing to do with The Way, International. Apparently you have some problems with that group. That is between you and them. I simply asked a question. 2 or 4 ?

So let's just not make it a more important thing than it really is: A moot point.

It is in the Bible. Why then is it a moot point? Do you not like my question? Why? What about three days and three nights, maybe that isn't important either. Maybe it was only 3 days and 2 nights, or maybe 2 days and 2 nights, what difference does it make, ... maybe we are save by grace, maybe works, maybe both, mabye neither.... Where does it end? The Word cannot be broken. It's either 2 or 4 not both. If it's 2, why? If it's 4, why? If it doesn't matter, then who needs a Bible to know God?

It's a simple question, with a simple answer. The point is do we believe tradition, or scripture? Which one has the most authority?

VFT