the OTHERS crucified with Christ

[ted]

It's a simple question, with a simple answer. The point is do we believe tradition, or scripture? Which one has the most authority?

A. Scripture.

You just seem to not understand it, that's all.

t.

PS- I can't believe this one has actually lasted two pages already.

Edited December 31, 2005 by ted

[ValiantForTruth]

A. Scripture.

You just seem to not understand it, that's all.

Ouch!

THEN, maybe you could help me understand why I should not believe there were 4 ?

PS- I can't believe this one has actually lasted two pages already.

And we haven't even considered the evidence from the Gospel of John. Lets take a look.

John 19:17,18

17) And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

18) where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus and the midst.

Now this appears to support tradition, UNTIL we take a closer look.

These verses are quoted from the KJV. The KJV was translated from the Stephens Greek Text. There are Greek-English Interlinear Books of the NT on the market that show the Greek on one line and the corresponding English words on another line. This is the English part of Interlinear.

John 19: 18

where him they crucified, and with him, others two on this side and on that side [one], and in the middle Jesus.

Notice that the word "one" is in brackets. In the interlinear there is a corresponding Greek word for all the English words EXCEPT the word "one". When there is no corresponding Greek word, the english word is put in brackets to indicate that the translators added the word "one".

The translators are telling us that they ADDED the word "one" in verse 18.

Now go back to the verse and read the verse without the word "one".

John 19:18

where him they crucified, and with him others, two on this side and on that side, and in the middle Jesus.

. . . . "two on this side and on that side". There were two on one side of Jesus Christ and two on the other side of Jesus Christ. Two plus two equals four.

Do you have a NT Gk-English Interlinear? Look it up! The word "one" never appeared in any Critical Greek texts. So why is it in the King James Version? Because by 1611 the Western world had become so indoctrinated by pictures showing Jesus Christ on the center cross with one evil doer on each side of him, that when they were translating this particular verse in John, THEY INSERTED THE WORD "ONE" to agree with established traditional beliefs. And in their defense, they told us they added the word. Their error was not italicizing the word one in the KJV (which they also normally did).

If you still have doubts..... keep reading.

John 19:32,33

32) Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

...Thief..-->..Malefactor..-->..JESUS....Malefactor....Thief...

Do you see the simplicity of this example? If we believe TRADITION, the soldiers would have to have broken the legs of the thief, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO WALK PAST JESUS to break the legs of the second thief. Then the soldiers came back to Jesus, and said to themselves, "He is dead already" so they did not break his legs. This scenario is not only illogical, it is senseless. The Word of God clearly states that they broke the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with Jesus and THEN they came to Jesus. So do you believe the scriptures? or do you believe tradition?

The scriptures are CLEAR. Two malefactors were crucified with him, one on each side. Later, two thieves were also crucified with him, one on either side, making 2 on either side with Jesus in the middle. Both theives cast the same in his teeth. But only one of the malefactors railed on him, the other did not. Then they broke the legs of the one, then of the other, but when they arrived at Jesus, he was already dead so that they did not have to break his legs (fulfilling a prophecy about his bones not being broken).

VFT

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

You dont see the point here.Remember you are reading two accounts of the same thing.In the beginning ,both thieves railed but later the one thief came to the realization that CHRIST was the SON of GOD.The one thief saw and heard things that convicted his heart while hanging there next to JESUS.The scripures dont lie,you just have to go deep sometimes to find the answers

I agree, the scriptures do not lie. But if your explanation is correct, then how do you account for the fact that TWO malefactors were LED WITH HIM, and they crucified one on either side.

...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...

THEN, AFTER they crucified them, they offered Jesus vinegar, parted his garments, cast lots, sat down and watched him, got permission for a sign, made the sign, hung it up. AFTER ALL THAT - which takes time - THEN they crucified TWO THIEVES, one on either side.

How can this be referring to the SAME two who were led with him?

Scriptures tell us that both Thieves railed on him,

...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief...

but only one Malefactor cast the same in his teeth, the other did not.

...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief...

Both Thieves cast the same in his teeth

One Malefactor railed on Jesus, the other did not.

Why should I believe your explanation? How does tradition support scripture?

VFT

Hmmmmmmmm...believe what you will

[Guest stevej]

I always find it interesting when someone takes 2 passages that say the exact same thing in a different ways and try to put their own turn to it. Semantics!

[Matthitjah]

VFT,

Grace to you,

So where will this newfound enlightenment lead?

What other Doctrine have you come to bring?

Can we speak for one second about how the two speak of the goats and the Sheeps?

You see, we have all railed at Jesus at one time or another. However some of us humans by the Grace of God come to Faith after being drawn to and witnessing Jesus. Grace by Faith, for I am singularly sure that the man who is enjoying paradise. Once a thief, did not have time to get down and help an old lady across the street. He was given the same denarius as the others sent out into the field. For which he truly wasn't Worthy. Neither are you and I. However the second man given the same witness and drawn to the same place. Being a thief likewise. (Having stolen from his Fathers House, just like you and I). Denied the witness of Jesus the Christ.

Where do you suppose he is?

Also why seperate the fact that they were both sinners and thieves by adding to the Gospel? Was one of the hapless fellows hanging in the company of Jesus the Christ sinless even as He Himself the King of Glory was?

Peace,

Dave

Edited December 31, 2005 by Dr. Luke

[apothanein kerdos]

These verses are quoted from the KJV. The KJV was translated from the Stephens Greek Text. There are Greek-English Interlinear Books of the NT on the market that show the Greek on one line and the corresponding English words on another line. This is the English part of Interlinear.

John 19: 18

where him they crucified, and with him, others two on this side and on that side [one], and in the middle Jesus.

Notice that the word "one" is in brackets. In the interlinear there is a corresponding Greek word for all the English words EXCEPT the word "one". When there is no corresponding Greek word, the english word is put in brackets to indicate that the translators added the word "one".

It says "kai entuethen"....that means "and the one on each side" or close to that effect.

[ValiantForTruth]

So where will this newfound enlightenment lead?

...To the TRUTH.

John 8:31-32

31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

What other Doctrine have you come to bring?

There is more written in the Bible about the last week of Jesus' life than any other topic in the Bible. Why do you suppose that is? I'll tell you why. It is because EVERYTHING leads to the RESURRECTION.

Romans 10:9

9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Without a belief in the resurrection, someone is going to be left behind. And I do not want that. Any questions that go unanswered are stumbling blocks to believing in the resurrection of our Lord and Savior. When "seekers" ask how you get 3 days and 3 nights from Friday to Sunday, and do not get the truth - they stumble. When the seeker asks how 2 theives rebuke Jesus in one record, and then only one rebukes Jesus in another record, and do not know why - they stumble. Any number of questions on the subject left unanswered are stumbling blocks. And if they stumble enough times, they eventually may fall and decide it's not worth getting up. I do not want that anymore than you do.

THE TRUTH SHALL ABSOLUTELY MAKE YOU FREE. What is wrong with wanting to know the TRUTH? How does this hurt anyone? If nothing else, it shows the perfection of the scriptures that is available when a person not only reads the scriptures, but studies them. Maybe you do not need to know that there were 4 crucified with Christ, maybe you do. Maybe you do not need to know the timing of Jesus death and resurrection, but maybe you do. Maybe you do not need to know, but there may be a person who is hung-up on one of these questions to the end that he/she is hindered from putting it all together in their heart and soul. Who is to say what TRUTH someone needs to hear to believe?

Romans 10:17

17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For me, these details took me from the "yes I believe I guess" category, into the "PRAISE GOD, IT'S TRUE, IT REALLY HAPPENED...LORD I BELIEVE!!!" category. It also points me to the scriptures when I have a question, instead of somewhere else.

I do not bring "another" doctrine. Just assurance of the one that we are all here to share, that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, and that because of this great love, I will live forever in the greatest family of all, the family of God.

Can we speak for one second about how the two speak of the goats and the Sheeps?

You see, we have all railed at Jesus at one time or another. However some of us humans by the Grace of God come to Faith after being drawn to and witnessing Jesus. Grace by Faith, for I am singularly sure that the man who is enjoying paradise. Once a thief, did not have time to get down and help an old lady across the street. He was given the same denarius as the others sent out into the field. For which he truly wasn't Worthy. Neither are you and I. However the second man given the same witness and drawn to the same place. Being a thief likewise. (Having stolen from his Fathers House, just like you and I). Denied the witness of Jesus the Christ. Where do you suppose he is?

Also why seperate the fact that they were both sinners and thieves by adding to the Gospel? Was one of the hapless fellows hanging in the company of Jesus the Christ sinless even as He Himself the King of Glory was?

Peace,

Dave

Davi, You can speak whatever you want! I certainly won't stop you. But if it contradicts the scriptures, you will get a response from me, or anyone else if we recognise it as such. This is a two-way street, ie. I would expect a response also. It would not be loving NOT to respond. If you knew there was a bridge out ahead, wouldn't you warn everyone you could so that they could avoid any harm? Of course you would. Speaking the truth of the Word of God is no different!

None of us are perfect. And no one knows it all. But by the grace of God we have the ability to learn, and I want to know all the truth that I can. This subject regarding the events of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ just happen to thrill my soul. Sorry if I have been unable to transfer any of that excitement your way.

Love in Christ,

Don

I am "ValiantForTruth"

[ValiantForTruth]

These verses are quoted from the KJV. The KJV was translated from the Stephens Greek Text. There are Greek-English Interlinear Books of the NT on the market that show the Greek on one line and the corresponding English words on another line. This is the English part of Interlinear.

John 19: 18

where him they crucified, and with him, others two on this side and on that side [one], and in the middle Jesus.

Notice that the word "one" is in brackets. In the interlinear there is a corresponding Greek word for all the English words EXCEPT the word "one". When there is no corresponding Greek word, the english word is put in brackets to indicate that the translators added the word "one".

It says "kai entuethen"....that means "and the one on each side" or close to that effect.

It does NOT say "one". The English word "one" is in [brackets] meaning it has been added - that's what the [brackets] mean. It has been put in [brackets] to show that it has been added because it has is no corresponding Greek Word.

"enteuthen kai enteuthen" means "on either side."

duo means "two."

The text actually says, "duo enteuthen kai enteuthen" which means "two on either side."

VFT

[ted]

Are you sure it doesn't mean "Two, one on each side"?

t.

[Leonard]

Valiant:

My dear fellow, how can you possibly think that it matters a WHIT to the resurrection of Jesus Christ whether there were 4 or 2 or 100 crucified with Him that day. Our salvation is not pegged to their number, but to God's one true sacrificial Lamb.

You surely cannot believe this issue is of any salvific effect, can you?

I will however answer your 'simple question: 2 or 4.' To wit: Oh yes! At least.....