Christianity and Capitalism

[apothanein kerdos]

Horizon, your enitre basis of argumentation is flawed from the beginning. For one, we cannot define Capitalism merely as "free-market." As I have shown, there is more involved in Capitalism than a free market economy. Secondly, you ignore the philosophical tennets behind Capitalism. Until you respond to these, your arguements will hold no weight.

I don

[Smalcald]

Adam Smith no more created capitalism than Isaac Newton created gravity.

Certainly he was the founder of modern ways of thinking about economics, and modern ways of understanding the market economy (although his ideas today are not cutting edge economic theory obviously).

The data don't support anything you are saying Apothanian. Simply look at how religious freedom, and in particular Christianity is treated across the globe and compare how it has been treated under more socialist countries and how it has been treated under what would be considered more capitalist countries.

The stronger a country is on the socialist scale the more it denies religious freedom. You should consider how Christians in Eastern Europe revere Ronald Reagan, not the grand socialist ideas you are talking about. I don't think we have to be slaves to capitalism as Christians, but please the alternatives simply don't exist.

The point of an economic system is just that, to distribute goods and services you are assigning far to much spiritual importance to a system which is designed to make bread and cars. One of the reasons that socialists are actually more materialistic than capitalist is that they are obsessed with these economic decisions over all other decisions in a society.

It is much easier to be non-materialistic here than it is in a socialist environment where over taxation, government ownership of most property, and slow economic growth, make it impossible for example to live a communal lifestyle. There is a reason the Anabaptists moved here and not Russia; there is a reason that many immigrants came here for religious freedom. What other socialist country has so many people who came for religious freedom?

I guess we could go to France, where they won't even let you where a crucifix to school, or North Korea or Saudi Arabia where they kill you if you convert a Muslim to Christianity.

No, the largest capitalistic country in the world, the US is also the place with the most religious freedom of expression. Unfortunately we have largely squandered that, but that is a different issue. Oh, as far as a communal economy, you could do that right now today, you have that freedom. If your ideas are sound then you could form a group of Christians today to pool all of your assets and live communally, growing and trading for most everything you need.

Unless of course you mean you want the government to force others to live that way?

But maybe I am just misunderstanding you? Are you saying we could tweak our system to provide a decent social safety net to those in need, or decent health care to everybody? I would be for those things, but that would take place still within a capitalist society.

[Leonard]

My shoulder has been causing me such pain that I have not slept well in weeks. If I've been grumpy here (I certainly DON'T feel I have, but then I'm a particularly curmudgeonous fellow.....), I wanted to extend an apology to any and all offended.

Frankly I'm in too much pain to continue to participate in a discussion which might actually require me to THINK--a rare sort of discussion, by the way, and thanks to Gerioke and Apothen....Apathies...... Apple O'Kurdistan..... that 'alphabet soup' guy, for making it possible!

[Gerioke]

My shoulder has been causing me such pain that I have not slept well in weeks. If I've been grumpy here (I certainly DON'T feel I have, but then I'm a particularly curmudgeonous fellow.....), I wanted to extend an apology to any and all offended.

Frankly I'm in too much pain to continue to participate in a discussion which might actually require me to THINK--a rare sort of discussion, by the way, and thanks to Gerioke and Apothen....Apathies...... Apple O'Kurdistan..... that 'alphabet soup' guy, for making it possible!

Get well soon Leonardus Curmudgeonus

[apothanein kerdos]

My shoulder has been causing me such pain that I have not slept well in weeks. If I've been grumpy here (I certainly DON'T feel I have, but then I'm a particularly curmudgeonous fellow.....), I wanted to extend an apology to any and all offended.

Frankly I'm in too much pain to continue to participate in a discussion which might actually require me to THINK--a rare sort of discussion, by the way, and thanks to Gerioke and Apothen....Apathies...... Apple O'Kurdistan..... that 'alphabet soup' guy, for making it possible!

No problem mate. You weren't rude at all, it was the perfect style of debate (at least for me)

[Gerioke]

Is barter illegal these days?

[nebula]

OK, I thought I would look in here for the fun of it . . .

And I concluded that this is a very weird debate!

I'm not an economics scholar, but this is ridiculous!

In Acts, it seems as if the Early Christians seemed to live in a sort of socialistic community. IIRC, when a convert would join the community, they would sell all their possesions and give the money to the community.

This was a free-will offering and not a requirement.

And they still had to pay their taxes to the Roman government and whatever economic set-up it had.

The original theory (not what we have added or morphed it into) was a dog eat dog; man was naturally competative and animalistic in nature, therefore it only stood to run an economic system on such assumptions.

OK, if we were a nation of Christians for real and wanted to follow the Bible's system of governance, I'd agree that Capitalism is not the economic system to use. More on this later.

But for a society of non-Christians, better a system that works with man's fallen nature for the good than to try to force them into something that they are not . . . as Socialism and Communism seem to do.

In Capitalism, the individual matters. Capitalism, at its core value, is anti-Bible. While we must work for our food, we must also look out for our neighbour, we must not elevate ourself above others, we must hold a sense of community and family. This runs contrary to the Capitalistic system. It certaintly is not something given to us by God, it's given to us by the Devil humanistic philosophy.

Can't exactly force the government to obey Christ's laws unless Christians are at the helm.

Hmm . . . how many Christians in all branches of government are there and at all levels?

Likewise, Capitalism doesn't give you the freedom to be charitable. In fact, it destroys it. Capitalism breeds off the idea that we are in constant competition with one another...therefore giving of your own good will is actually anti-Capitalism. True Capitalism teaches we are to look after ourselves, the individual, first.

Here again - how can one give charitably if one has nothing to give?

Sure, we can look at people who make more in a week than I can in a year and see how much money they have for themselves, but when we look at how much money many of them are giving to good causes - Wow! That's still more money than I can make!

Ssytems are what they are. biblical Christianity is all about the individual - your individual relationship to God.

Yes, Jesus spoke of wealth at times, and yes He told one rich young ruler to sell all and give to the poor and "Follow Me," but did He say this to Joseph of Arimethia? This Joseph was a wealthy man and follower of Jesus - and if not for his wealth, Jesus would not have been given a tomb to be raised from.

And how about Lydia, a trader in purple cloth (a lucrative business in those days)? Is there a mention of her giving up her business and wealth?

**

Now, if we wanted a true Biblical economic system, we'd have to look to the portion of the Bible which actually deals with governance - the Torah.

What was the economic system of Ancient Israel?

Was it Communistic? Socialistic? Capitalistic?

I doubt it was either.

But each man worked for his own wealth AND there were still many poor people, and even slaves!

BUT, God's command required the people to provide for those in need.

It was the ministry of the Temple to administer to the needs of the poor, not the political ruler. It was also the ministry of individuals (i.e. allowing the poor to glean your fields).

But really, the New Testament doesn't deal with politics and economic systems and such. It doesn't give governance laws. It tells individuals how to live.

Making money isn't a sin (unless you do so in an ungodly manner) - it's what you do with it.

[Smalcald]

Making money is not a sin, but desiring to be rich is questionable at least in scripture. I do think we live in an unreality of false desire and materialism today, which was not present in this country 100 years ago. The gap between rich and poor is larger, we spend more on frivolous things, we consume far far more media, and we have seen a concurrent destruction of the intact family, all of these would be consistent with a philosophy of individualism and self actualization. I think AK has some good points about individualism and how in our culture we are really designed to feel that winning and economic competition are the most important things, materialism does seem to be our national God or Idol.

But, I don't think the problem rests with Capitalism per-se.

On the face of it one might think well people would be more generous in a socialist country, or people would share more and care more and be less materialistic, but we find none of that to be true when we look at the socialist experiments which have been tried over the past 100 years.

[Smalcald]

Let me add though that there have been successful Christian communal groups practicing the example of the first churches holding all property and goods in common throughout history and into today. I think this individual economic system can be succesfull and can be a great benefit spiritually.