nebula Posted January 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) I was in a debate with someone over the issue of God's sovereignty with another poster in another thread, and I thought this subject deserved its own thread. (See here and the post following for the issue I refer to.) So, here goes. When you read about the prophecies concering the End Times in the Bible, do you believe that Satan is in control of the Earth, or that Satan is playing into God's hands? Put another way - Do you believe the Lord's sovereignty means He is manipulating the chess board to make it look as if Satan is dominationg the board to bring about His purpose? Or do you believe that the Lord's sovereignty means that He's completely out of the chess game but has the ability to upturn the board (intervene) whenever He wants to (at the end of the Tribulation)? (I don't k now if that's the best analogy, but that's just the one I could think of.) Edited January 9, 2006 by nebula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted January 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Satan was given limited power by God but God is still the boss. Satan is like the corrupt store manager at God's emporium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted January 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2006 I was in a debate with someone over the issue of God's sovereignty with another poster in another thread, and I thought this subject deserved its own thread. (See here and the post following for the issue I refer to.) So, here goes. When you read about the prophecies concering the End Times in the Bible, do you believe that Satan is in control of the Earth, or that Satan is playing into God's hands? Put another way - Do you believe the Lord's sovereignty means He is manipulating the chess board to make it look as if Satan is dominationg the board to bring about His purpose? Or do you believe that the Lord's sovereignty means that He's completely out of the chess game but has the ability to upturn the board (intervene) whenever He wants to (at the end of the Tribulation)? (I don't k now if that's the best analogy, but that's just the one I could think of.) If Satan is in complete control over the earth, then there is no promise that God can follow through on His promises to humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoburbite Posted January 7, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 418 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1965 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Great analogy. Satan was given a lease on this earth once Adam and Eve fell. He doesn't do any more or any less than what God knows he is doing. Jenni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK202002 Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2006 Satan at least had to have some degree of control. How else could he tempt Jesus with authority over the world? Matthew 4:8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." But then later in the gospel, Jesus says all authority has been given to me"...So... I don't know. The devil is certainly not running wild, like a lose dog with no one to control him. In the old testement the devil apparently had to ask for permission to hurt Job. chapter 1. I think if I knew when the devil fell from heaven then I could answer you better- Revelations 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Heart Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 20 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1951 Share Posted January 8, 2006 About Gods Soveriegnity... There can be no doubt about God being the universal Soveriegn. Ps. 83:18 says, "that they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD (YHWH), are the Most High overall the earth." That is never even a question. As far as Him being up there pulling satans strings; God made us all free moral agents even the angels. He gave us the ability to act on our own and to chose the direction we will go, even the angels. Satan allowed evil thoughts to take him on a very wrong course, in direct opposition to God. The book of Job that 2 The Point brought up, (which was a very good point), also shows that God has allowed satan to do his best to mislead man and pull those of us who desire to remain close to God away. In Gods wisdom he saw that the obedience of man could not be complete unless he, when being tempted, knew what the results of disobedience would be. By allowing satan to go on in his course and mankind to go on in its sinful state, God has allowed man the experiences in life to see what disharmoy with God and all His universal laws would bring. So you see that satan was given pretty much a free reign over the earth. Jesus at John 14:30 said, "...for the ruler of this world is coming and he has nothing on me." By so saying He was showing that satan was given that authority by God. Also it is worthy to note that when Jesus was being tempted by satan to give him the rulership of all the kingdoms, he claimed to have of the world, Jesus didn't refute his having it in his power to do so, in Luke 4:5-8 Paul also realized this. In Eph. 2:2 he said, "...according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." And again in 2 cor. 4:4 Paul, speaking about those who were blinded by satan, said, "...whose minds the god of this world has blinded." John in 1 Jo. 5:19 said, "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." And again in Rev.13:1,2 when speaking about the beast; that the dragan, (satan) gives it its power, throne, and great authority. Satan is indeed the ruler of this world; that is not to say he has any power above Gods, but that he is allowed to have it. It was given to him. The Good News is that all these 'experiences' that man has been allowed to have and which will help us all to make intelligent choices about our course in life, whether we will serve God or continue in our own way, 'doing our own thing' are rapidly coming to an end as the time for Jesus to establish his kingdom is very near. The time in which he will put satan into the abyss and return all things to the origianal intentions that His Father had in mind to begin with. Sickness and death will be done away with and ALL will be taught the truth about God and His purposes and then be able to make that intellegent choice. Just as Joshua said to the Israelites, "I put before you today life and death, YOU must chose life." When he was explaining to them about the 'blessing and the benediction'. I hope this makes sence to you and gives you some light on the matter. Your friend and fellow servant....Bruce As We Always Seek The Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted January 8, 2006 IMO the only power that satan has, is the power that man allows him to have. 1JN.4:4 Greater is He that is you that he who is in the world. Job was a one off to prove who has the Power. The same as the plagues that befell the pharaoh, who was a type of satan. God is Sovereign and satan is a bag of wind. eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Heart Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 20 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1951 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Hello Lawyer for God, I really like the way you have put your reply.... "God has a plan overall that will come to pass. Where you and I are in that is up to us. God's plan will happen to the day he wants it to whether you choose to be in it or not. To be in God's plan, we would be witnessing to others helping them come to know God before Jesus returns." Because ever since Adam and Eve fell from Gods favor He has set in motion a Plan to restore everything back to His origional intention. In fact He stated as much when sentencing Adam and through the His Prophets down through the ages He has revealed them to us and in our Lord Jesus the penalty was paid. According to what we are to look for as far as the culmination of that plan goes we are very near to realizing the full impact of the 'times of resitution' the restoring of all things spoke of by all those prophets inculding Jesus Himself at least in one place when He taught the desciple to pray..."... your will be done your Kindom come on EARTH as it is in Heaven." As far as the witnessing part goes our being here is a form of just such and it is good to hear from one whose insight into the Plan of God is evident. Keep it up, my brother. Your friend and fellow witness..Bruce As We Always Seek The Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted January 8, 2006 OK - great discussion going on here! But to throw in a monkey wrench - The question came up while in a debate concerning how Christians are to regard and respond to governmental authority. The discussion quickly fell into the belief that our current government is preparing the establishment of the Anti-Christ (or worded something like that). So, the question came up over who is the true soverign over the governments of this world? Is Satan the "puppetmaster"? Or is Satan playing right into God's hands? (The argument came out stronger in the post I linked to at the beginning, if that helps clarify what I mean.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 8, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,244 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,968 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2006 Neb, when you start a new thread and referr back to another discussion it is usually polite to start the new discussion from that persons full statements and not edited quotes so the entire thoughts are not referred to. I bowed out of the other discussion for you said you were getting angry, I only post here because only part of my thoughts were quoted by the post that you started this one with, and that is just not right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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