Satan

[Guest LDStudent]

Lucifer/Satan was a son of God.

The Bible refers to angels as "sons of God" in several instances. Example:

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:2

Angels are sons of God in the same way as those daughters mentioned in the verse were the offspring of men.

Lucifier was a child of God, but chose to disassociate himself from the Heavenly family.

Oh brother

Genesis 6:2 is not in reference to angels. A quick look to Matthew 22:30 shows that angels are incapable of sex and possibly without gender. If they are incapable of sex, then how in the world did they cohabitate with the daughters of men? The most logical explanation is that these were powerful rulers and warriors who were probably indwelt by fallen angels (we know from Ezekiel 28:11-19 and Daniel 10:13 that this can occur). Satan was not God's son, he did not fight with Jesus, there is nothing within scripture to indicate this and in fact, the belief contradicts scripture (as Jesus being the ONLY Son of God, John 3:16).

I assume God took away their ability to procreate with mortal women. When I was an Evangelical, the majority of my brethren had no objections to this theory. Fallen beings of flesh and bone had intercourse with mortal women. That is what Genesis 6:2 always meant to me. Now, you propose that "sons of God" are demons who infest mortal men, not literal angels? Hmm. Perhaps you can explain this verse, then:

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

^ Tell me, did the demon-infested mortal men shout for joy at the creation of the world? Oh... wait. Mortal men did not exist then. Nor did Demons. So much for that theory.

[apothanein kerdos]

Lucifer/Satan was a son of God.

The Bible refers to angels as "sons of God" in several instances. Example:

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:2

Angels are sons of God in the same way as those daughters mentioned in the verse were the offspring of men.

Lucifier was a child of God, but chose to disassociate himself from the Heavenly family.

Oh brother

Genesis 6:2 is not in reference to angels. A quick look to Matthew 22:30 shows that angels are incapable of sex and possibly without gender. If they are incapable of sex, then how in the world did they cohabitate with the daughters of men? The most logical explanation is that these were powerful rulers and warriors who were probably indwelt by fallen angels (we know from Ezekiel 28:11-19 and Daniel 10:13 that this can occur). Satan was not God's son, he did not fight with Jesus, there is nothing within scripture to indicate this and in fact, the belief contradicts scripture (as Jesus being the ONLY Son of God, John 3:16).

I assume God took away their ability to procreate with mortal women. When I was an Evangelical, the majority of my brethren had no objections to this theory. Fallen beings of flesh and bone had intercourse with mortal women. That is what Genesis 6:2 always meant to me. Now, you propose that "sons of God" are demons who infest mortal men, not literal angels? Hmm. Perhaps you can explain this verse, then:

Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

^ Tell me, did the demon-infested mortal men shout for joy at the creation of the world? Oh... wait. Mortal men did not exist then. Nor did Demons. So much for that theory.

If Mormons knew proper interpretation of the bible as well as they know how to twist scripture, they wouldn't be part of that Satanic cult.

Context, as well as language, dictates everything.

For one, when we turn to the Septuagint we see that "sons of God" is uio tou theo. This same term is used to desribe those who are saved in the New Tesatment, in other words, it's in reference to those of Adam. In fact, it is even used to reference Adam in Luke 3:38....are you advocating that Adam was part of the divine? "Sons of God" has many, many, many meanings within Hebrew and Greek. Within the Greek it will either refer to someone who is human, a powerful human being (such as a king or a warrior), or an actual angel. Again, context and logic dictates how this will be interpreted. In Job it is properly interpreted to mean "angels" because of the context it is found in. As you pointed out, it could not possibly refer to a human of any type. However, in Genesis we see that it is impossible for it to refer to angels. Again, I provide scriptural fact that angels are unable to have sex, you provide a thought that this ability was taken away from them. It makes no sense and more importantly holds no biblical weight. LIkewise, the context speaks of powerful men and warriors, showing that these offspring inhereted these traits. In other words, they took a position that was already in existance.

This simply goes to show that Satan was not a literal son of God, as Jesus is. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, He IS God.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

First of all, Jews do not believe in a devil,

Jesus Christ The King of The Jews sure did;

Joh

Edited January 13, 2006 by Dr. Luke

[apothanein kerdos]

If Mormons knew proper interpretation of the bible as well as they know how to twist scripture, they wouldn't be part of that Satanic cult.

Context, as well as language, dictates everything.

Wow, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is!!

Nearly every christian doctrine is based on twisted Old Testament verses taken completely out of context, yet you claim the Mormons are wrong. That's like getting in an argument about how fast Santa Claus' reindeer can fly.

My grandfather was a hazzan (Cantor) in the Jewish temple. He read the Torah every day, two hours a day, committing it to memory in Hebrew. His primary language was Hebrew, and he had studied all the major Rabbinical commentaries on the Torah. If there ever was an expert in Judaism, it was him. Yet, upon comparing the Torah and the promises of Messiah to the life of Christ, He saw that it was true, Christ was (and is) the Messiah.

Are you telling me that a devout Jew, who knew his decision would lead to expulsion from his family, and knew more about the Torah than most rabbis (and certainly more than you!) twisted scriptures to come to this conclusion?

[Guest LDStudent]

If Mormons knew proper interpretation of the bible as well as they know how to twist scripture, they wouldn't be part of that Satanic cult.

Do you realize how much it hurts to be labelled a Satanist, when in reality I love the Lord the same as other Christians? I do not see why you have to spread so much hatred. Disagreement is one thing, but bashing what I know in my heart to be true is NOT an example of brotherly love! Please consider what I'm saying.

For one, when we turn to the Septuagint we see that "sons of God" is uio tou theo. This same term is used to desribe those who are saved in the New Tesatment, in other words, it's in reference to those of Adam. In fact, it is even used to reference Adam in Luke 3:38....are you advocating that Adam was part of the divine? "Sons of God" has many, many, many meanings within Hebrew and Greek. Within the Greek it will either refer to someone who is human, a powerful human being (such as a king or a warrior), or an actual angel. Again, context and logic dictates how this will be interpreted. In Job it is properly interpreted to mean "angels" because of the context it is found in. As you pointed out, it could not possibly refer to a human of any type. However, in Genesis we see that it is impossible for it to refer to angels. Again, I provide scriptural fact that angels are unable to have sex, you provide a thought that this ability was taken away from them. It makes no sense and more importantly holds no biblical weight. LIkewise, the context speaks of powerful men and warriors, showing that these offspring inhereted these traits. In other words, they took a position that was already in existance.

This simply goes to show that Satan was not a literal son of God, as Jesus is. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, He IS God.

It is quite simple: Adam was divine. So were you and me. Before we were born, we lived in Heaven. Therefore, you and me are "sons of God," in the same way as Angels are "sons of God." However, those who are not born-again are not sons of God; and they could potentially become sons of Perdition (the Devil). In this sense, the word "son" is more figurative than literal, but I do also believe it is literal. God the Father is the Father of our spirits.

Warm regards to all

LDStudent

Edited January 13, 2006 by LDStudent

[bgoalie35]

No, I am not born again, because I still sin, and the bible says that those who are born of God do not sin. It also says that Jesus went to be with his father up in the sky somewhere, therefore, No Jesus does not live INSIDE of me. It seems to be easier for some to hold on to superstitious beliefs rather than spend the time studying facts.

Tubal..

I believe the verse you are referring to is:

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:9 NASB

You should not that the tense of the verb "practices sin" in the greek speaks of ongoing habitual sin. It does not say that

a person who is saved will never sin

Good excuse for continuing to sin.

So, you must be saying that there is sin in God. Since you CLAIM to be born of God, yet you still sin.

You claim that only christians are born again, yet there are people in every society and every religion who have strong moral values and choose to live a righteous life. According to you, they are not born of God, they just choose to live that way. Personally, I see no difference in them and you. If you sin, you obviously do not have a "christ nature". You've just made a choice to TRY not to sin. And that is no different than the devout members of every other religion....the ones you claim are lost.

You seem to think that Christians are saved because of what they do. Have you encountered Christians who believe they are going to heaven because they are good people? If so, they are wrong. Christianity is based on grace. We are no better than anyone else, and there is no moral difference between us and any other person who chooses to live a moral life. We are saved because Jesus sacrificed himself for us, all of us (all humanity). Our trust in him is the only thing that saves us.

Maybe you should cite some scriptures that Christianity has twisted to come up with its core belief. Please note I am not saying cite scriptures that scattered individuals erroneously cite. People make mistakes all the time. Atheists, Christians, Muslisms, whoever, all make mistakes. I am asking you to cite scriptures that are necessary to the heart of Christianity that have been twisted.

[Rania]

Ezekiel 28:13-18

I just realized this passage speaks not only of how Satan fell, but also speaks of his ultimate demise. Am I understanding that correctly or missing something?

Tap

Can someone answer this for me?

Ezekiel was in no way referring to a fallen devil named Satan. First of all, Jews do not believe in a devil, therefore, they would not refer to one. Secondly, if you read the entire chapter, you will see that he IS referring to the king of Tyre, which at the time of his writing was a fellow named Ittobaal. Thirdly, notice that in verse 19, the author says that "All the nations who knew you are appalled at you". Ok, now when was this supposed fall of Satan? It must have been before creation since you insist that he was the snake in the garden of Eden. If so, who were all these nations that knew Satan before creation?

Fourth, in verse 8, the individual is threatened with a violent death "in the heart of the sea". Is this how your devil is going to die? I thought he was going to be tortured for eternity. Fifth, in verse 9, the individual is clearly called a MAN. And who are the people that are going to slay him?

Look, you need to quit taking verses out of context and trying to make them say what you want them to. Read the entire book, or at least the whole chapter, so you can understand what is being said. Did you even notice that Ezeliel also gave prophecy against Ammon, Moab, Philstia, Sidon and Egypt?

Look, you need to quit taking verses out of context and trying to make them say what you want them to.

I was asking.

Thank you for responding to me. I will do more studying and get back on this.

I'd sure like another opinion.

TAP

[apothanein kerdos]

Do you realize how much it hurts to be labelled a Satanist, when in reality I love the Lord the same as other Christians? I do not see why you have to spread so much hatred. Disagreement is one thing, but bashing what I know in my heart to be true is NOT an example of brotherly love! Please consider what I'm saying.

I'm not here to coddle those in error or sugar coat the truth. There are doctrinal errors and temporary beliefs in heresies; we all slip into this. However, Mormonism is a beast of a different kind. It is nothing short of a full fledged heretical religion. Anything that is not truth is the absense of truth, thus caused by Satan. Mormonism falls under this. I am not saying you fall down on your face every night worshiping the Devil, but you ARE part of a Satanic (false) religion. There is no escaping this. And before you start saying that I get all this information from "anti-mormon sites" (something that is a typical accusation), i want you to know that I have talked to 6 missionaries and two elders. I have likewise read through the entire BoM and parts of D&C. I have studied the history of Mormonism from a Mormon perspective (Mormon historical books) and still have come to this conclusion. I have compared the teachings of Mormonism from Mormon writings and leaders to scripture and found the two to contradict each other. So don't accuse me of using biased sources...if you make this excuse you're discrediting six missionaries, two elders, and all of the writings behind Mormonism.

As for "what you know in your heart to be true," this is often how Mormons appeal to the truth. This is to be expected. Mormonism was founded during a very anti-intellectual time in American History (Second Great Awakening) where more emphasis was placed upon the heart (emotions) than the mind (intellect). We are called to love our Lord with all of our hearts, soul, and mind. This means if we overemphasize one part over the others we are failing in this command. You can know something is true in your heart, but if you cannot intellectually prove this case with logic and proper interpretation, your point is void. As it is, I have yet to see a Mormon Apologist.

It is quite simple: Adam was divine. So were you and me. smile.gif Before we were born, we lived in Heaven.

The problem is this contradicts scripture and is a heretical philosophy. First, to scripture:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him,And the same one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15

'asah and kuwn are the key words here because they show an original creation. It means to create something that is new and original. "Me" refers to the whole "me" in Hebrew. It refers to the spiritual aspect of man and the physical aspect of man. In other words, we did not exist until we were formed in the womb.

This [the belief that "me" refers to the entirety of man] is established in Psalms 139:13:

For You formed my inward parts;You wove me in my mother's womb.

[Matthitjah]

TAP,

Regarding Ezekial.

Examine the Word of God and pray. Ask the Lords leading. It may help to examine some commentary's written by men who have done likewise over the age of the Church. We can formulate and even be led to our answer by the Spirit of God. Sometimes through the work of others.

I wrote a word of caution regarding certain posters here. It still stands. Test the spirits. We are exhorted to do so.

1Jo

[Kabowd]

If Mormons knew proper interpretation of the bible as well as they know how to twist scripture, they wouldn't be part of that Satanic cult.

Context, as well as language, dictates everything.

Wow, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is!!

Nearly every christian doctrine is based on twisted Old Testament verses taken completely out of context, yet you claim the Mormons are wrong. That's like getting in an argument about how fast Santa Claus' reindeer can fly.

My grandfather was a hazzan (Cantor) in the Jewish temple. He read the Torah every day, two hours a day, committing it to memory in Hebrew. His primary language was Hebrew, and he had studied all the major Rabbinical commentaries on the Torah. If there ever was an expert in Judaism, it was him. Yet, upon comparing the Torah and the promises of Messiah to the life of Christ, He saw that it was true, Christ was (and is) the Messiah.

Are you telling me that a devout Jew, who knew his decision would lead to expulsion from his family, and knew more about the Torah than most rabbis (and certainly more than you!) twisted scriptures to come to this conclusion?

Yes, I am

Can you provide the Scriptures which have been twisted by christians, and show us the proper interpretation of them?