Hot, Cold or Lukewarm?

[Fiosh]

Disagree. I hope I do not step on any toes with this comment but if the leadership of the Presbyterian Church USA were to come forward and say the denomination is repenting of its views that many of us believe make it a modern example of lukewarmness then they would return as a legitmate church and denomination. Same thing if the Pope were to step forward and repent of what that church believes about justification. Churches can and should repent of their practices that make them lukewarm just as Jesus was urging the church at Laodecia to do.

worm

[Guest shiloh357]

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

The issue about water comes up because Jesus is using something they would have been familiar with given their geographical location and the need to boil their water before drinking or cooking. Loadicean water was full of parasites, as a result of being lukewarm from being piped in from other cities.

Jesus using a metaphor. Cold water speaks of refreshment, and edification. Hot water speaks of Holiness, and healing. Jesus said he would rather that they were hot or cold.

If "cold" means lving in sin, why would he wish that of them???? That makes no logical sense. Hot and cold water are useful, lukewarm is not. It is lukewarmness ONLY that is being criticized. Lukewarm is not doublemindedness at all. Lukewarmness is apathy. Which is exactly the state that He finds the Laodiceans in.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Lukewarm believers in Laodicea were enjoying their comfortable lives produced by their wealth. They may or may not have been engaging in immoral behavior, but nevertheless they had no passion for the Lord. Faith was an afterthought, a footnote to their happy little lives.

*******************

Two passages in Scripture are in large part responsible for driving me to a new level of faith several years ago. A sermon preached by my pastor on Matthew 25: 31-46 shook me as never before, in the realization that I was not caring for Jesus as I should in "the least ones". I was almost brought to tears right there and then, as my pastor reminded us just how serious these words of Jesus are.

This jolted me into a conscious effort to truly and significantly serve Jesus in the poor, the sick, the imprisoned, etc.

The other passage is Romans 1: 16.

I was driving thru town one pleasant summer day listening to a Christian radio station. The song based on Romans 1:6 was playing, and I was singing along, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel.....". I stopped for a red light, and as another car pulled along side me, I caught myself rolling up the window. Ouch! Talk about conviction.

Jesus had caught me but good! There I was singing, "I am not ashamed....." and rolling up my window so as not to be heard.

I could almost hear Him saying, "Oh really........you're not ashamed of Me?"

At that moment I determined to be bolder in my faith.

So, for me, to not be lukewarm means to hold fast to these promises: to serve Jesus in all I meet in practical ways. And, to speak my truth in love, boldly.

That is not to boast that I am always successful. I sometimes feel prompted by the Spirit to give "sacrificially", but back away, afraid to trust in God's Providence. And there are many times I have missed an opportunity to witness.

Yet, I now take these responsibilities with extreme serioiusness and am convicted when I fall short.

Peace,

Fiosh

Fiosh,

Thank you for turning the discussion back to the original and intended purpose of the thread, and thank you, too, for this very insightful and thoughtful look at the subject of lukewarmness. Isn't it wonderful how God brings these things to our attention, much to our shame at times, but with such tender conviction that we just can not resist his voice, but rather are brought to tears. Thank you for openly sharing your tenderness towards God's voice to you. I'm so glad you are listening!

[apothanein kerdos]

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

The issue about water comes up because Jesus is using something they would have been familiar with given their geographical location and the need to boil their water before drinking or cooking. Loadicean water was full of parasites, as a result of being lukewarm from being piped in from other cities.

Jesus using a metaphor. Cold water speaks of refreshment, and edification. Hot water speaks of Holiness, and healing. Jesus said he would rather that they were hot or cold.

If "cold" means lving in sin, why would he wish that of them???? That makes no logical sense. Hot and cold water are useful, lukewarm is not. It is lukewarmness ONLY that is being criticized. Lukewarm is not doublemindedness at all. Lukewarmness is apathy. Which is exactly the state that He finds the Laodiceans in.

A quiet voice of reason

[Christ's Free Servant]

if the leadership of the Presbyterian Church USA were to come forward and say the denomination is repenting of its views that many of us believe make it a modern example of lukewarmness then they would return as a legitmate church and denomination. Same thing if the Pope were to step forward and repent of what that church believes about justification. Churches can and should repent of their practices that make them lukewarm

Actually, this statement has merit in principle---if not totally in content.

The problem I have with this is that a denomination or an institution is not the church. The church, according to scripture, is a body of believers. Certainly church or denominational leaders can repent for the stance of the church or denomination as a whole, but I don't think that is what Christ is referring to. I believe he is talking about actual flesh and blood churches made up of individual believers and he is calling those believers to repent. A denomination or even a church organization could change its ways, but that does mean that the church as a whole is repentant or that they are no longer lukewarm. Lukewarmness is a heart issue, not a denominational issue, and denominations don't have hearts, people do. I do agree that this passage is talking to a whole church and I do believe God is calling for repentance of the members of the church or else the church as a whole will face his discipline and rebuke. Leaders of organizations can certainly repent of the sins of the organization, but they can't repent for the church, which is the people. I think that is really where the problem lies here is in understanding that a church is not an institution. It is people.

[apothanein kerdos]

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

The issue about water comes up because Jesus is using something they would have been familiar with given their geographical location and the need to boil their water before drinking or cooking. Loadicean water was full of parasites, as a result of being lukewarm from being piped in from other cities.

Jesus using a metaphor. Cold water speaks of refreshment, and edification. Hot water speaks of Holiness, and healing. Jesus said he would rather that they were hot or cold.

If "cold" means lving in sin, why would he wish that of them???? That makes no logical sense. Hot and cold water are useful, lukewarm is not. It is lukewarmness ONLY that is being criticized. Lukewarm is not doublemindedness at all. Lukewarmness is apathy. Which is exactly the state that He finds the Laodiceans in.

I don't think so. Reading water into this is a stretch.

Christ wasn't "wishing" them to be cold. He is saying he would "rather" them either hot or cold and not lukewarm.

This is teaching us not to "Straddle" the fence. Either live Christianity fully or not at all, but just don't live it "half-hearted".

No word of commendation was extended to the Laodicean church. They were pictured as utterly abhorrent to Christ because they were lukewarm. This was addressed to the church and also to the messenger or the pastor whom some believe was Archippus (Col. 4:17). It is improbable, however, that Archippus, if he had been the pastor of the church, was still living. In referring to the church as

[st. Worm]

"As for your

[Christ's Free Servant]

In the following passage of scripture, Jesus states to the church at Laodecia that because they are neither hot nor cold but rather are lukewarm that he is about to spit them out of his mouth. What category do you believe fits your life, if you care to say, and what do you think it means to be "hot" or "lukewarm"? Without getting legalistic, what do you think are the dividing factors between a believer who is "hot" and a believer who is "lukewarm"? And, based upon the following passage, what do you think it means when he says "I am about to spit you out of my mouth"? Do you think believers today take this seriously? Do you? And, if so, what difference should it make in your life? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately:

Back to the origninal question.

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

I have always seen this scripture as three types of believers:

1. Cold - those who are not living Christianity, they are still living in thier sins.

2. Lukewarm - those who are double minded (James 1:8). I go to Church and call myself a Christian yet will give up some sins and still hold onto certain sins. i.e I can give up drinking, lying, and stealing, but I still live in fornication and swear. I am what's called "Straddling the fence". This is what you would call a hypocrite.

2. Hot - I give myself completely over to God and Christ's doctrine. My heart and my life belong to God and my life reflects that.

The reason God would spew out a "lukewarm" Christian is because they are the most damaging to a congregation. They cast a reprach on the "Body of Christ". Could you imagine seeing your preacher comming out of a bar every Saturday night just to have to listen to him on Sunday preach to you about Christian living? Would listen to those who teach on the behaviour of children and marriage if thier house was not in order? We are supposed to be examples for each other and edify each other and I can't be there for you when my life is still filled with sins. (Galatians 6:1)

Christ wrote to these 7 churches because they had some problems in their congregations that need to be fixed. Most were told to repent or Christ would remove thier candlesticks. The candlesticks were the churches and if they did not repent they would be removed. We know that the churches are the people.

God wouldn't have to worry about cold people because they would just leave the church anyway. Anybody cold to Christianity would not bother themselves to to attend.

As far as the question of a whole congregation repenting, If you have preachers and teachers that start swaying from the truth and begin to teach things other than what was taught them, they can lead the whole congregation into apostasy. If the preachers and teachers are corrected or replaced and the truth starts to be taught and lived again by the congregation then they have repented of the apostasy.

Cardcaptor,

VERY GOOD! I applaud you on staying with the subject at hand!! And, I appreciate very much your insight on this subject. You have some very valid arguments worth consideration. I also believe that those who think "cold" is referring to being "refreshing or encouraging" also have a valid argument to consider, though I do have one problem with it. Why would Christ say that either they were hot or cold and that he would rather they be one or the other but instead they are lukewarm? It seems to be that hot and cold are diametrically opposed to each other. I think that because he says they are one or the other. If cold means encouraging and hot means healing, these do not seem to be opposites but rather are complimentary and are even of the same nature. So, I'm still working that one through. I do agree that your evaluation has always seemed to be the generally accepted thought on the subject, though "generally accepted" does not always mean correct. I do agree with your assessment of "lukewarm" Christians, though. I believe they are the most damaging to the cause of Christ.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Hey Horizon,

Whether or not infant baptism is Biblical, for the sake of this thread, the question is, "is it possible for a church to repent, as a body and not the sum total of its individual members?" IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE FOR the Lutheran Church to repent?

I'm guessing from your post that you think it is possible.

F

Thank you, Fiosh, for helping to keep things on target.

[apothanein kerdos]

In the following passage of scripture, Jesus states to the church at Laodecia that because they are neither hot nor cold but rather are lukewarm that he is about to spit them out of his mouth. What category do you believe fits your life, if you care to say, and what do you think it means to be "hot" or "lukewarm"? Without getting legalistic, what do you think are the dividing factors between a believer who is "hot" and a believer who is "lukewarm"? And, based upon the following passage, what do you think it means when he says "I am about to spit you out of my mouth"? Do you think believers today take this seriously? Do you? And, if so, what difference should it make in your life? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately:

Back to the origninal question.

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

I have always seen this scripture as three types of believers:

1. Cold - those who are not living Christianity, they are still living in thier sins.

2. Lukewarm - those who are double minded (James 1:8). I go to Church and call myself a Christian yet will give up some sins and still hold onto certain sins. i.e I can give up drinking, lying, and stealing, but I still live in fornication and swear. I am what's called "Straddling the fence". This is what you would call a hypocrite.

2. Hot - I give myself completely over to God and Christ's doctrine. My heart and my life belong to God and my life reflects that.

The reason God would spew out a "lukewarm" Christian is because they are the most damaging to a congregation. They cast a reprach on the "Body of Christ". Could you imagine seeing your preacher comming out of a bar every Saturday night just to have to listen to him on Sunday preach to you about Christian living? Would listen to those who teach on the behaviour of children and marriage if thier house was not in order? We are supposed to be examples for each other and edify each other and I can't be there for you when my life is still filled with sins. (Galatians 6:1)

Christ wrote to these 7 churches because they had some problems in their congregations that need to be fixed. Most were told to repent or Christ would remove thier candlesticks. The candlesticks were the churches and if they did not repent they would be removed. We know that the churches are the people.

God wouldn't have to worry about cold people because they would just leave the church anyway. Anybody cold to Christianity would not bother themselves to to attend.

As far as the question of a whole congregation repenting, If you have preachers and teachers that start swaying from the truth and begin to teach things other than what was taught them, they can lead the whole congregation into apostasy. If the preachers and teachers are corrected or replaced and the truth starts to be taught and lived again by the congregation then they have repented of the apostasy.

Cardcaptor,

VERY GOOD! I applaud you on staying with the subject at hand!! And, I appreciate very much your insight on this subject. You have some very valid arguments worth consideration. I also believe that those who think "cold" is referring to being "refreshing or encouraging" also have a valid argument to consider, though I do have one problem with it. Why would Christ say that either they were hot or cold and that he would rather they be one or the other but instead they are lukewarm? It seems to be that hot and cold are diametrically opposed to each other. I think that because he says they are one or the other. If cold means encouraging and hot means healing, these do not seem to be opposites but rather are complimentary and are even of the same nature. So, I'm still working that one through. I do agree that your evaluation has always seemed to be the generally accepted thought on the subject, though "generally accepted" does not always mean correct. I do agree with your assessment of "lukewarm" Christians, though. I believe they are the most damaging to the cause of Christ.

It actually is important for us to determine what Christ means by "cold nor hot" because this effects the application of the verse. I would submit further evidence that because "nor" (oute) is a conjuction, it means "both" not "either/or." In other words, in the first half of the sentence, Jesus is saying, "You're not cold and likewise you're not hot..." This is the first part...they are neither refreshing or showing a zeal for the Lord. Jesus says that He would prefer they at least have one of these attributes, because then they would be useful. Saying "cold" refers to absolute denial of God and that lukewarm is somewhere in between doesn't fit in the context. Verse 17 shows us their sin; apathy and contentment; this would be "cold" if we took cold to mean what everyone is saying it means.