Hot, Cold or Lukewarm?

[Christ's Free Servant]

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

The issue about water comes up because Jesus is using something they would have been familiar with given their geographical location and the need to boil their water before drinking or cooking. Loadicean water was full of parasites, as a result of being lukewarm from being piped in from other cities.

Jesus using a metaphor. Cold water speaks of refreshment, and edification. Hot water speaks of Holiness, and healing. Jesus said he would rather that they were hot or cold.

If "cold" means lving in sin, why would he wish that of them???? That makes no logical sense. Hot and cold water are useful, lukewarm is not. It is lukewarmness ONLY that is being criticized. Lukewarm is not doublemindedness at all. Lukewarmness is apathy. Which is exactly the state that He finds the Laodiceans in.

I have been thinking this through, and I still have not come to any conclusion on this, but if hot means what you say and cold means what you say, why would Christ say he would rather they be one or the other? And, just from a natural viewpoint just from basic English, if I were to speak in an English lit class about hot and cold and lukewarm or a science class, I think the understanding would be clear that cold and hot were opposites and that lukewarm was in between. So, if that is true, why would Christ say he would rather they be one or the other? I think it is because he would rather we take a stand for Christ or not stand at all. It is not that he would desire us to be cold, but in comparison to lukewarm, he would rather we either be for him or against him than to say we are for him and then not live like what we say. Like one person said, lukewarm Christians do the most damage to the name of Christianity because they proclaim one thing but live another. I'm still thinking this one through, though. I think there are good arguments on both sides. But whether you believe cold is "refreshing" or you believe it means to not be a believer, one thing is still clear. God hates lukewarmness in Christians who are the church and he will discipline the church, which is the body of believers, which is made up of individuals for their lukewarmness, and I believe this is a warning to all people who call themselves Christians to get on their knees before God in humility and repentance and to surrender to God.

[apothanein kerdos]

, why would Christ say he would rather they be one or the other?

Read my above post...this isn't an either/or situation....this is a "I want you to be both, heck, I'd be happy if you were just one....but you're neither"

[Christ's Free Servant]

Horizeneast,

Even if there is not one clear and specific example of infant baptism, that does not alone mean it is not a biblical practice. Certainly there is not a prohibition for infants being baptized and I think we can make reasonable assumptions that the household baptisms in the NT included infants. At any rate, I would say the preponderance of the evidence indicates that infants should be baptized but I am probably too tired to get into a complete argument about that tonight. You and I both probably know the arguments well enough anyway.

SW

worm

[Christ's Free Servant]

Christ wasn't "wishing" them to be cold. He is saying he would "rather" them either hot or cold and not lukewarm.

This is teaching us not to "Straddle" the fence. Either live Christianity fully or not at all, but just don't live it "half-hearted".

I agree!

[Christ's Free Servant]

, why would Christ say he would rather they be one or the other?

Read my above post...this isn't an either/or situation....this is a "I want you to be both, heck, I'd be happy if you were just one....but you're neither"

As I said, I'm still thinking this one through. I'll work it through when it is not so late at night and my brain is functioning better. I'd like to read some commentaries on it from different sources first. I'll get back atcha! I have homework to do for both my classes at school tomorrow, so that has to be a high priority, following my time with the Lord. I'd love to sit here and keep discussing this, but alas, the old brain here is beginning to go to sleep.

I'll talk with you all again soon. Please feel free to go on without me, but please be kind to everyone and try to stay on the subject, ok? And, one other thing, I don't want this to be merely an intellectual exercise. Yes, it is important that we understand what the passage is saying, but what I would like to hear more, if possible, is what it is saying to you personally. How do you (anyone) believe God wants to apply this to your life? To your church? What can we learn from this in order to not be guilty of being lukewarm? If not lukewarm, what are we to be and how do we become it?

[Fiosh]

In the following passage of scripture, Jesus states to the church at Laodecia that because they are neither hot nor cold but rather are lukewarm that he is about to spit them out of his mouth. What category do you believe fits your life, if you care to say, and what do you think it means to be "hot" or "lukewarm"? Without getting legalistic, what do you think are the dividing factors between a believer who is "hot" and a believer who is "lukewarm"? And, based upon the following passage, what do you think it means when he says "I am about to spit you out of my mouth"? Do you think believers today take this seriously? Do you? And, if so, what difference should it make in your life? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately:

Back to the origninal question.

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

I have always seen this scripture as three types of believers:

1. Cold - those who are not living Christianity, they are still living in thier sins.

2. Lukewarm - those who are double minded (James 1:8). I go to Church and call myself a Christian yet will give up some sins and still hold onto certain sins. i.e I can give up drinking, lying, and stealing, but I still live in fornication and swear. I am what's called "Straddling the fence". This is what you would call a hypocrite.

2. Hot - I give myself completely over to God and Christ's doctrine. My heart and my life belong to God and my life reflects that.

The reason God would spew out a "lukewarm" Christian is because they are the most damaging to a congregation. They cast a reprach on the "Body of Christ". Could you imagine seeing your preacher comming out of a bar every Saturday night just to have to listen to him on Sunday preach to you about Christian living? Would listen to those who teach on the behaviour of children and marriage if thier house was not in order? We are supposed to be examples for each other and edify each other and I can't be there for you when my life is still filled with sins. (Galatians 6:1)

Christ wrote to these 7 churches because they had some problems in their congregations that need to be fixed. Most were told to repent or Christ would remove thier candlesticks. The candlesticks were the churches and if they did not repent they would be removed. We know that the churches are the people.

God wouldn't have to worry about cold people because they would just leave the church anyway. Anybody cold to Christianity would not bother themselves to to attend.

As far as the question of a whole congregation repenting, If you have preachers and teachers that start swaying from the truth and begin to teach things other than what was taught them, they can lead the whole congregation into apostasy. If the preachers and teachers are corrected or replaced and the truth starts to be taught and lived again by the congregation then they have repented of the apostasy.

Cardcaptor,

VERY GOOD! I applaud you on staying with the subject at hand!! And, I appreciate very much your insight on this subject. You have some very valid arguments worth consideration. I also believe that those who think "cold" is referring to being "refreshing or encouraging" also have a valid argument to consider, though I do have one problem with it. Why would Christ say that either they were hot or cold and that he would rather they be one or the other but instead they are lukewarm? It seems to be that hot and cold are diametrically opposed to each other. I think that because he says they are one or the other. If cold means encouraging and hot means healing, these do not seem to be opposites but rather are complimentary and are even of the same nature. So, I'm still working that one through. I do agree that your evaluation has always seemed to be the generally accepted thought on the subject, though "generally accepted" does not always mean correct. I do agree with your assessment of "lukewarm" Christians, though. I believe they are the most damaging to the cause of Christ.

It actually is important for us to determine what Christ means by "cold nor hot" because this effects the application of the verse. I would submit further evidence that because "nor" (oute) is a conjuction, it means "both" not "either/or." In other words, in the first half of the sentence, Jesus is saying, "You're not cold and likewise you're not hot..." This is the first part...they are neither refreshing or showing a zeal for the Lord. Jesus says that He would prefer they at least have one of these attributes, because then they would be useful. Saying "cold" refers to absolute denial of God and that lukewarm is somewhere in between doesn't fit in the context. Verse 17 shows us their sin; apathy and contentment; this would be "cold" if we took cold to mean what everyone is saying it means.

I have to admit that I have never really studied this passage before. I've read it many times, and always took it as face value to mean "hot"=passion for Christ; "cold"=no feeling at all for Christ; lukewarm=apathetic in faith.

Then when I heard the explanation about the hot springs, and about cold meaning "refreshing", it made alot of sense.

Yet, I think there is still merit in the possibility that "cold" means no feeling for Jesus.

This is from David Guzik:

b. What do we mean when we say someone is lukewarm? In one sense, lukewarmness is a picture of uselessness - "Hot water heals, cold water refreshes, but lukewarm water is useless for either purpose" (Morris)

c. But more strongly, lukewarmness is a picture of indifference and compromise - it takes on the temperature of its surroundings

i. Does Jesus mean to say that these Christians are intrinsically cold, but warmed up by their religious trappings? Or, that they are essentially hot, but cooled down by their apathy and self-reliance? Both are possible, but since He is talking to His church, there is an emphasis on the later

ii. Has there been a greater curse upon the earth than empty religion? Is there any soul harder to reach than the one who has just enough of Jesus to think they have enough? Laodicea exemplifies empty religion; and tax collectors and harlots were more open to Jesus than scribes and Pharisees

iii. Satan will have us any way he can get us, but he prizes a lukewarm religionist far above a cold-hearted sinner

i. Then why does Jesus say I could wish you were cold or hot in verse 15? Because at least you can feel cold; the lukewarm Christian has enough of Jesus to satisfy a craving for religion, but not enough for eternal life

ii. The thief on the cross was cold towards Jesus and clearly saw his need; the Apostle John was hot towards Jesus and enjoyed an intimate relationship of love. But Judas was lukewarm; following Jesus enough to be considered a disciple, but not giving his heart over to Jesus in fullness

iii. Deep down, there is no one more miserable than the lukewarm Christian; they have too much of the world to be happy in Jesus, but too much of Jesus to be happy in the world

Just food for thought.

Fiosh

[Smalcald]

But another way of looking at the hot and cold distinction and why Jesus said, I would rather you be at least cold rather than lukewarm could be that people in abject sin and outward rejection of Christ at least have a chance at repentance. They have made a choice an honest choice a wrong one, but they may know where they stand. These people are not fooled into thinking they are followers of Christ or have any part in Him, thus His words to them and the Gospel could be healing balm indeed, in fact the Gospel was designed for them, if they feel the pain and sorrow of their sin. But the lukewarm, they believe they are rich, when they are poor, they don't feel the need for repentance, which is the most dangerous position a human being can find themselves in with respect to the Lord and their eternal fate. By fooling themselves about their faith, by just going through the motions, they deny themselves the knowledge of the true urgency and danger of their horrible state and predicament. For them the outward motion of Christianity is a drug, preventing them from seeing their true condition before the Lord.

Lewis said and I agree with him that an honest atheist is closer to Christ than a hypocritical Christian going through the motions, but not having faith, afraid to leave. It is possible that unless this one goes down the path of rejection, they will never find the path back to repentance, but instead stay in a sort of suspended animation, unwilling to chose anything, and thus the Lord will spit them out.

But as far as congregations or denominations repenting, I think it is possible and is needed.

[Smalcald]

Oh I think fiosh and I just cross posted the same idea!

[Kabowd]

In the following passage of scripture, Jesus states to the church at Laodecia that because they are neither hot nor cold but rather are lukewarm that he is about to spit them out of his mouth. What category do you believe fits your life, if you care to say, and what do you think it means to be "hot" or "lukewarm"? Without getting legalistic, what do you think are the dividing factors between a believer who is "hot" and a believer who is "lukewarm"? And, based upon the following passage, what do you think it means when he says "I am about to spit you out of my mouth"? Do you think believers today take this seriously? Do you? And, if so, what difference should it make in your life? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately:

Back to the origninal question.

I find nowhere in these mentioned scriptures about water. Christ was referring to thier works.

I have always seen this scripture as three types of believers:

1. Cold - those who are not living Christianity, they are still living in thier sins.

2. Lukewarm - those who are double minded (James 1:8). I go to Church and call myself a Christian yet will give up some sins and still hold onto certain sins. i.e I can give up drinking, lying, and stealing, but I still live in fornication and swear. I am what's called "Straddling the fence". This is what you would call a hypocrite.

2. Hot - I give myself completely over to God and Christ's doctrine. My heart and my life belong to God and my life reflects that.

The reason God would spew out a "lukewarm" Christian is because they are the most damaging to a congregation. They cast a reprach on the "Body of Christ". Could you imagine seeing your preacher comming out of a bar every Saturday night just to have to listen to him on Sunday preach to you about Christian living? Would listen to those who teach on the behaviour of children and marriage if thier house was not in order? We are supposed to be examples for each other and edify each other and I can't be there for you when my life is still filled with sins. (Galatians 6:1)

Christ wrote to these 7 churches because they had some problems in their congregations that need to be fixed. Most were told to repent or Christ would remove thier candlesticks. The candlesticks were the churches and if they did not repent they would be removed. We know that the churches are the people.

God wouldn't have to worry about cold people because they would just leave the church anyway. Anybody cold to Christianity would not bother themselves to to attend.

As far as the question of a whole congregation repenting, If you have preachers and teachers that start swaying from the truth and begin to teach things other than what was taught them, they can lead the whole congregation into apostasy. If the preachers and teachers are corrected or replaced and the truth starts to be taught and lived again by the congregation then they have repented of the apostasy.

Cardcaptor,

VERY GOOD! I applaud you on staying with the subject at hand!! And, I appreciate very much your insight on this subject. You have some very valid arguments worth consideration. I also believe that those who think "cold" is referring to being "refreshing or encouraging" also have a valid argument to consider, though I do have one problem with it. Why would Christ say that either they were hot or cold and that he would rather they be one or the other but instead they are lukewarm? It seems to be that hot and cold are diametrically opposed to each other. I think that because he says they are one or the other. If cold means encouraging and hot means healing, these do not seem to be opposites but rather are complimentary and are even of the same nature. So, I'm still working that one through. I do agree that your evaluation has always seemed to be the generally accepted thought on the subject, though "generally accepted" does not always mean correct. I do agree with your assessment of "lukewarm" Christians, though. I believe they are the most damaging to the cause of Christ.

It actually is important for us to determine what Christ means by "cold nor hot" because this effects the application of the verse. I would submit further evidence that because "nor" (oute) is a conjuction, it means "both" not "either/or." In other words, in the first half of the sentence, Jesus is saying, "You're not cold and likewise you're not hot..." This is the first part...they are neither refreshing or showing a zeal for the Lord. Jesus says that He would prefer they at least have one of these attributes, because then they would be useful. Saying "cold" refers to absolute denial of God and that lukewarm is somewhere in between doesn't fit in the context. Verse 17 shows us their sin; apathy and contentment; this would be "cold" if we took cold to mean what everyone is saying it means.

reposting this because he gave the original word and it's meaning....but it appears it's been ignored.

[Christ's Free Servant]

But another way of looking at the hot and cold distinction and why Jesus said, I would rather you be at least cold rather than lukewarm could be that people in abject sin and outward rejection of Christ at least have a chance at repentance. They have made a choice an honest choice a wrong one, but they may know where they stand. These people are not fooled into thinking they are followers of Christ or have any part in Him, thus His words to them and the Gospel could be healing balm indeed, in fact the Gospel was designed for them, if they feel the pain and sorrow of their sin. But the lukewarm, they believe they are rich, when they are poor, they don't feel the need for repentance, which is the most dangerous position a human being can find themselves in with respect to the Lord and their eternal fate. By fooling themselves about their faith, by just going through the motions, they deny themselves the knowledge of the true urgency and danger of their horrible state and predicament. For them the outward motion of Christianity is a drug, preventing them from seeing their true condition before the Lord.

Lewis said and I agree with him that an honest atheist is closer to Christ than a hypocritical Christian going through the motions, but not having faith, afraid to leave. It is possible that unless this one goes down the path of rejection, they will never find the path back to repentance, but instead stay in a sort of suspended animation, unwilling to chose anything, and thus the Lord will spit them out.

Very good! I have to admit this is where I am leaning, though I still need time, when brain is awake, to research it further. But, theory as to interpretation of this passage aside, I do believe what you have said is true, regardless of how we interpret this passage of scripture. I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated that an unrepentant sinner has a chance to become repentant, so there is hope for him, but a lukewarm Christian is duped into believing he is ok when he isn't. Perhaps this is not talking about true believers, but those who think they are believers. I've just reread what you wrote, and it is awesome! This is really the danger I see in the church today - so many people thinking they are believers when they really aren't, because someone told them that that repentance was not necessary for salvation and so they don't see the danger they are in. How you said it was perfect! Lewis also said it well. I am nearly convinced that this is the true meaning of the passage. I think there is a warning in here to the Church prior to Christ's return that they need to wake up and see their condition. I believe that is why these letters to the churches are at the beginning of Revelation. I believe they represent the churches in those final days before Christ returns. He is calling the church for that last call to repentance before the final judgment. Still thinking... but should be going to bed.