Hot, Cold or Lukewarm?

[Guest shiloh357]

'the only reason we are not going anywhere is that you have yet to offer ANY substantive reason why we are "stretching" anything."

Ok, I give. I have shown nothing (not really but I will play). Now please feel free to tell me why you interpret it the way you do. PLEASE!!!!

Actually, the first time you asked me for my reasoning behind my interpretation, I reposted everything I said, which demonstrateed in posts #19 and #22 the analysis being used, and the reasons for it. Since you disagreed with what we have provided, you were asked to provide the same analysis and you evade every request.

You avoid it because you can't provide anything. You have no analysis to offer and every post of your's is just an attempt at evasiveness. If you had provided analysis, you could easily quote yourself the way I quoted myself.

[st. Worm]

"Poop or get off the pot."

Clearly this comment sums up the depth of your intellect. (Pretend there is a shaking my head in disbelief emoticon)

[apothanein kerdos]

"Poop or get off the pot."

Clearly this comment sums up the depth of your intellect. (Pretend there is a shaking my head in disbelief emoticon)

Like I said, all you can do is attack and I refuse to debate you on that level. What I am asking, is if you can provide analysis for what you believe and/or prove that you have thus far. All you've accomplished is attacking people. In fact, the last three posts to me you have done nothing but attack me and not answered the question. Like I said, either poop or get off the pot (it's a saying to indicate you are saying a bunch of stuff but not providing any substance behind why)

[st. Worm]

This has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning here as well. It is important to note that the Church of Laodicea did not have its own natural springs, and therefore both hot and cold water had to be "piped" in via aquaducts from other cities. The problem was that when the water arrived at Laodicea, it was luke warm. Lukewarm water is where you find the highest degree of parasites, and so it had to be boiled first, before the citizens of Laodicea could use it for drinking, or cooking, or whatever.

Jesus says I wish you were either hot or cold. Hot and cold water are both useful to us. Cold water is refreshing and it quenches thirst. Hot water has healing and anti-sceptic properties.

Lukewarm water in those days, was not just useless but potentially deadly. These were apathetic, complacent people, neither hot nor cold. They were not making themselves useful for the Kingdom.

Above is what you posted in post 22. Why can that not be applied to churches and why must it be applied to individuals alone? After all Jesus could have addressed them in some other way than as the church. I have already told you I agree with the basic ideas of the piping in of water to these people. Further I am still waiting for someone to tell me what I must do to not be found lukewarm if these warnings are to individuals.

[Guest shiloh357]

This has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning here as well. It is important to note that the Church of Laodicea did not have its own natural springs, and therefore both hot and cold water had to be "piped" in via aquaducts from other cities. The problem was that when the water arrived at Laodicea, it was luke warm. Lukewarm water is where you find the highest degree of parasites, and so it had to be boiled first, before the citizens of Laodicea could use it for drinking, or cooking, or whatever.

Jesus says I wish you were either hot or cold. Hot and cold water are both useful to us. Cold water is refreshing and it quenches thirst. Hot water has healing and anti-sceptic properties.

Lukewarm water in those days, was not just useless but potentially deadly. These were apathetic, complacent people, neither hot nor cold. They were not making themselves useful for the Kingdom.

Above is what you posted in post 22. Why can that not be applied to churches and why must it be applied to individuals alone? After all Jesus could have addressed them in some other way than as the church. I have already told you I agree with the basic ideas of the piping in of water to these people. Further I am still waiting for someone to tell me what I must do to not be found lukewarm if these warnings are to individuals.

Why can that not be applied to churches and why must it be applied to individuals alone?

Who said that it had to be applied to individuals alone???????? What we are saying is that while the interpretation is corportate, and that it does apply to the church at laodicea as a whole, it also has individual application as it bears on our personal conduct at school, in the workplace, at home, etc. No one said that the application was solely to individuals!!!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

You know, I think this thread has definitely gotten off track and it is missing the mark for which it was intended. It began well, but it has digressed into a battle of wits over the whole topic of interpretation of scripture. I don't think this bantering back and forth is very productive, do you? So, can we move on to what is helpful for building up the body of Christ and can we put aside what is destructive? Let's attack the problem and not the people, ok?

If we were to take this passage by itself without any other supporting passages, then perhaps we could say that this principle does not apply to individuals, but if we take it in light of other teachings in scripture, we see that it is certainly consistent with the teachings of Christ and of the NT writers. We can debate all day about whether or not the "lukewarm" Christians were really Christians at all, but we may never know. The fact that he speaks of them as believers leads me to believe they are believers who are just kind of floating along. Perhaps they once made a strong commitment to Christ but they slipped into mediocrity. Is it possible to slip so far as to lose one's salvation? I believe there are many supporting scriptures on both sides of that issue. I do think this is a serious warning by God. He does say that many are going to say on that day "but I did this in your name" and he's going to say he never knew you. James says that even the demons believe and they shudder. I see many passages that talk about being cut off and I don't think they are in there for us to just glide by them because we think they don't apply to us. I think too many people are "lukewarm" because they have lost the fear of God. They don't really think God will do anything to them, so they just float along on the hope that the "eternal security" people have it right and they'll still get into heaven. But, should that really be our only goal? Live like we want to live as long as we have our ticket into heaven? And, I hear preachers even telling people in their churches that they don't have to worry that God is going to judge them for their sin if they have their ticket to heaven. It is almost as though preachers are giving people a license to sin. The Bible says that the road to heaven is narrow and that few are those who enter, but we like to believe the road is broad and there are many who enter. I think anyone who is a true believer in Jesus should want to obey him and should want to move out of mediocrity into his wonderful light. It concerns me greatly that so many "Christians" hide behind a false security of a prayer they prayed at some point in their life and that no matter how life is lived, they feel sure they will get to go to heaven. I just don't see that supported in scripture. I think the letters to the churches in Revelation are warnings for us to heed. I think they are the final call to repentance in the last days. I don't know for sure whether or not God will spit churches or individuals out of heaven, but I do know that whatever that means, it will not be pleasant. But, even beyond that, shouldn't our hearts be longing for God? Shouldn't we be hungering and thirsting after righteousness? Shouldn't we want to cry out to God in repentance for our "lukewarmness" and desire to follow him wherever he leads us? That is what this is really all about. It is about holy living. It is about obedience. It is about loving God with our hearts, souls and minds. This is where the discussion should be heading.

[st. Worm]

"it also has individual application as it bears on our personal conduct at school, in the workplace, at home, etc."

Thank you! At least while we may disagree we are more clearly defining the differences. I have read the passage very slowly and carefully once again. Please don't take this a personal attack but I honestly see nothing there that has anything to do with instructions for personal conduct. After lambasting this church for its apparent indifference and failure to recognize its spiritual poverty, the instruction is to repent and acknowledge its neediness, turning to Christ, the source of the church and its strength. Like I said don't take it personally but I see nothing there concerning individual personal ethics or morality as you imply above.

Blessings.

[Fiosh]

Cold christians, to me, are the ones who say they believe in God and Jesus was a great man/prophet and they give other religions the same importance as the sacrifice our Lord made.

I would unfortunately fall into the second category and this worries me.

Geri, Jesus said, "I wish you were either hot or cold." If "cold" meant what you are saying, why would Jesus say he wants you hot or cold?? It is the "lukewarm" that he hates. "Cold water" refers to that which is refreshing, edifying, encouraging." Cold water is not "bad."

The people you are describing who ascribe Jesus as a prophet on par with other religious figures would not be a Christian, and would therefore not be included in this description.

Are you saying that Jesus is no more important than Buddha, Or Hinduism?? Are you saying that Jesus is a great man, but you don't believe he is the Son of God, but just a prophet?

Hi Geri,

Please pardon me for sticking my nose in where it may not belong. In reading thru this thread, this post caught my attention.

I believe what happened here is that when you said, " I would unfortunately fall into the second category", Shiloh thought you meant "cold", when in fact, you were referring to your definition of "lukewarm".

Hope that helps.

btw.....you are feeling convicted for your lack of passion, at times, for your faith. That's a good thing. And it puts you several steps ahead of those of us who think we're doin' just fine, when we could be doing alot more.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest shiloh357]

"it also has individual application as it bears on our personal conduct at school, in the workplace, at home, etc."

Thank you! At least while we may disagree we are more clearly defining the differences. I have read the passage very slowly and carefully once again. Please don't take this a personal attack but I honestly see nothing there that has anything to do with instructions for personal conduct. After lambasting this church for its apparent indifference and failure to recognize its spiritual poverty, the instruction is to repent and acknowledge its neediness, turning to Christ, the source of the church and its strength. Like I said don't take it personally but I see nothing there concerning individual personal ethics or morality as you imply above.

Blessings.

Do you know the difference between an "interpretation" and an "application?" A passage can only have ONE interpretation, but have more than one application. Yes, the passage is speaking to a Church body about its lukewarmness, but the question from the OP is there anything we can glean from this, and apply to our own lives. You clearly don't understand the difference between interpretting and applying Scripture.

Another example: Jesus said that a man who lusts in his heart as committed adultery already in his heart. Now while that is clearly talking about the sin of adultery, Jesus is giving a principle that can be applied to other sins as well. From Jesus' example, we can see that sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh. Jesus' remarks on adultery can be applied to lying, cheating, stealing, etc. The point is that it is not enough to not carry out the sin physcially. We should not be entertaining temptation in our minds, and hearts.

That is an example of applying BEYOND the interpretation, which is what we are doing regarding the Church in Laodicea. In doing so, we are not violating context, and we are not contradicting the interpretation. We are gleaning life lessons that we take with us and make useful in our daily walk with the Lord. Is that really so hard to understand????

[st. Worm]

I am sorry Shiloh. Once again don't take it personally but there is absolutely nothing in those passages to the Laodician church that gives rise to the application you describe. Its just not there. I almost wish it was so I could just agree and go on but it is not. Sorry.