The Trinity?

[Brother Chad]

I don't have time to explain all these to you, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of Jesus as man and God. No offense here. Alot of what you just said has to do with His humanity relating to His deity. Nowhere does the verses you use show a trinity. Maybe I John 5:7 but we all know that this verse was added in the 1500's and can't be found on any old manuscripts of the Bible.

Do we now? Someone on these boards actually refuted that lie a while back.

I forgot who though.

I dont think YOU have a clear understanding of who Jesus is.

In the passages in Revelation both chapter 2-3, and chapter 22, he is speaking AS DEITY, and immediately makes that clear, by saying I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA. And yet you choose to ignore the implications of this in light of the passage from chapter 3 verse 12.

Was Jesus lying about who he was? No. Was he lying about who the Father is in chapter 3? No. Was he lying when he said he did not have the authority to grant Salome's request? No, and yet he definitely is and was God.

Yes, Jesus was God the Father in Spirit and a man in flesh. Did I get it right?

[Brother Chad]

I will give it one more shot with you guys and then you are on your own.

-There is one indivisible God (Deuteronomy 6:4). God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and therefore invisible to man (John 1:18; I Timothy 6:16).

-God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent (Psalm 139; Revelation 19:6).

-In the Old Testament, God manifested Himself in many ways called theophanies (Genesis 18:1; Exodus 33:22-23).

-In the New Testament, God manifested Himself in human flesh as Jesus Christ, the Son of God (John 1:1, 14; I Timothy 3:16).

-In the Old Testament God revealed Himself by the name Jehovah or Yahweh, which means the Self-Existing One or the Eternal One.

-The New Testament often describes the one God as the Father (Romans 8:14-16; John 3:16).

-The Bible uses the term Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit to refer to the one God. Describing what God is and emphasizes God in activity such as creation (Genesis 1:2) and regeneration, baptizing, filling, adn anointing (Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4).

-The Word refers to the one God, particularly to the thought, plan, or expression of God.

-God manifested Himself in flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This manifestation of God is called the Son of God because He was literally conceived in the womb of a woman by the miraculous operation of the Spirit of God (Matthew 1:18-20). The Son did not pre-exist the Incarnation except as a plan in the mind of God, namely as the Word.

-Jesus has a dual nature-human and divine, or flesh and Spirit. Two complete natures are united inseparably in the person of Jesus Christ. In his human nature Jesus is the son of Mary. In His divine nature Jesus is the one God Himself (II Corinthians 5:19; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16).

-Jesus is the Father (Isaiah 9:6; John 10:30; 14:6-11), Jehovah (Jeremiah 23:6), the Word (John 1:14), and the Holy Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 3:16-17).

-The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the oneness of God and the absolute deity fo Jesus Christ.

-Trinitarianism contradicts and detracts from important biblical teachings. It detracts from the Bible's emphasis on God's absolute oneness, and it detracts from Jesus Christs full deity.

-The Bible does not speak of an eternally existing "God the Son"; for the Son refers only to the Incarnation.

-The term "three persons in one God" is inaccurate because there is no distinction of persons in God. He has one visible body- the glorified human body of Jesus. The only number relevant to God is one.

[Brother Chad]

Okay Brother John,

I am going to take each one separately and try to explain them to you as best I can using the Bible alone. Here goes your number 1:

1. Jesus is God. On this we agree. As such he is all knowing. That would mean that he would fully understand if a "trinity" existed or not, even when he was in this world. It is ludacrous to me to believe that Jesus would pray to a god in heaven that did not exist. That would actually be an example of him praying to an idol or false god, which we are forbidden to do. If there were no Father in heaven, he would have had to pray to himself, which he clearly didn't do.

First, yes we agree that Jesus is God, but I believe that He is God the Father manifested in flesh. I can prove this with I Timothy 3:16,

[BlindSeeker]

1. Jesus is God. On this we agree. As such he is all knowing. That would mean that he would fully understand if a "trinity" existed or not, even when he was in this world. It is ludacrous to me to believe that Jesus would pray to a god in heaven that did not exist. That would actually be an example of him praying to an idol or false god, which we are forbidden to do. If there were no Father in heaven, he would have had to pray to himself, which he clearly didn't do.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven.

How could Jesus be standing there in front of Nicodemus and still say that He was in heaven? It is as Brother Chad states, Christ was the invisible, omnipresent and omniscience God that inhabits all Heaven and earth manifested in human form of flesh and blood locked in time and space.

A good basic guideline for understanding Christ, the God/man, is to remember that God in His pure essence "is a spirit" (John 4:24). By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future. Therefore Jesus, while locked in time and space by His human flesh, through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15).

Now ponder this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it would seem as if there were two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one - one in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is the escape from time's hold that affords you the ability to be in two places simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come.

This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus. "No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven," (John 3:13). Jesus was there talking to Nicodemus, yet referring to Himself as "is in heaven." It is this unique aspect of God's Omnipresence by which He knows those who would be saved from the foundations of the world.

[Brother Chad]

Alright Brother John,

Here is my shot at number 2 on your list:

2. We see a clear example of the trinity at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16, 17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and loe, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him. And loe, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." In this instance all three appeared in the same scene. The Holy Ghost came down to Jesus like a dove, and the Father spoke from his throne in heaven. To believe as you do, Jesus would have been acting as a ventiliquist. He literally would be breeding confusion by his actions, and the Bible says God is not the author of confusion.

This is always a fun one to tackle. It can be quite confusing to say the least. So in this passage we have Jesus being baptized and the Spirit descending like a dove, and a voice speaking from heaven. Luke 3:22 adds,

[Brother Chad]

Brother John,

Number 3:

3. In John 16:25-28 "These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: the time commeth when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my Name: and I say not unto you that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." Notice that Jesus makes clear distinction between himself and the Father. He states he came "out from God." Jesus is God and came out from God. That is how they are one. Just like an egg has a shell, egg white, and a yolk, it is still one egg, God is one God, but in 3 parts, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus says the Father loves us because we love Jesus. If there was not a distinction, why not simply say, "I love you because you love me?" He then says he is going back to the Father. Why not say, "I am returning to heaven to reclaim my throne?" If there is no trinity, then Jesus is causing the confusion by using such language.

The clear distinction in this one is the humanity versus deity. Let

[BlindSeeker]

To add to Brother Chad

[Brother Chad]

Brother John,

4. John 16:12-15 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot hear them now: Howbeit, when HE the Spirit of truth is come, HE will guide you into all truth: For HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF: BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK, and will shew you things to come. HE SHALL GLORIFY ME, FOR HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU. All things THE FATHER HATH, are mine: therefore said I that HE shall take of MINE, and shew it unto you." (Capitols added for emphasis.) Notice again the language Jesus uses here. Jesus clearly says he has things he would like to teach his disciples but they are not able to bear it. He then says the Spirit of Truth will come and guide us into all truth. The Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost. I am assuming you will acknowledge the Spirit is God. Notice the Spirit (God) will not speak of himself, but of those things he shall hear. Hear of who? Obviously Jesus, whom he will glorify.

I am going to take this opportunity to show you how the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one.

God is Father, is holy, and is a Spirit? If this is correct then the titles of Father and Holy Spirit describe the same being. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and was born the Son of God as a result. That would make the Holy Ghost the Father of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In Joel 2:27-29: The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the one Jehovah God of the Old Testament. Since we know that there is only one Spirit, certainly the Spirit of Jehovah must be the Holy Spirit. Here are a few passages that further reveal this truth: Acts 2:24 to Romans 8:11, John 14:26 to II Corinthians 1:3-4, and Matthew 10:20 to Mark 13:11 to name a few. Father and Holy Ghost are two different descriptions of the one God. They describe the same being but emphasize different aspects, roles, or functions that He possesses.

Now since I have shown how the Father and Holy Spirit are one in the same and not two distinct persons, lets show how Jesus Christ is the Holy Ghost. The Spirit that is residing in Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit: Romans 8:11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. This says that the Spirit of God raised Christ from the dead and that He would do the same for us by the Spirit that dwells in us. We know that the Holy Ghost is that Spirit in us. Yet in John 6:40, Jesus tells us that He will raise us up at the last day. This clearly shows that the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ and vice versa. Otherwise we must call Jesus a liar and we know that He is not. As long as Jesus was present with them in the flesh He would not be present spiritually in their hearts, but after He physically departed He would send back His own Spirit to be with them. Believers are filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4, 38), yet it is Jesus who dwells in us (Colossians 1:27). In Mark 13:11, Jesus tells them not to worry about what they will say because the Holy Ghost will help them and then in Luke 21:15, Jesus says that He will give them wisdom in what to say. I believe these all show a clear picture that Jesus Christ (deity) is the Holy Ghost.

Finally, the titles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit describe God

[Brother Chad]

We must remember that God is omnipresent. Jesus is God manifested in flesh while on earth. He could not and did not sacrifice His omnipresence while on earth because that is one of God

[Brother Chad]

Bro. John,

5. We see Jesus with the Father in Acts 7:55 and 56 "But he being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Once again, we clearly see the trinity. Jesus is on the right hand of God the Father in heaven, and Stephen is full of the Holy Ghost, the comforter sent into this world by Jesus to lead us into all truth.

While the word "trinity" is not found in scripture, the fact is, the trinity is clearly seen. Like an egg has three parts, yet it is one egg, so God is one God, but in three persons: The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father is in heaven on his throne with his Son Jesus Christ by his side. The Holy Spirit is in this world in the hearts of believers.

Concerning the question of baptism and why Jesus said to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the accounts of baptism by the disciples in Acts are in Jesus name, I would make the following comments. First, Jesus told us how to baptise. If what he said is wrong, then he lied to us, causing confusion. Secondly, what you read in acts are mearly accounts of the activities of the disciples. They do not say how to baptise. It just records they did baptise in Jesus name. Based on that, I prefer the method taught by the Lord, but do not think it really is that important, since the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all one. The apostolic church is making an issue out of this that is really of no consequence. If baptism was so essential to salvation, and we must practive a precise formula to be saved, why did Paul make the following statement? 1 Corinthinans 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." If it were necessary as apostolics teach to be baptised in Jesus name to be saved, then Paul most certainly would have been called to baptize and to do so immediately upon the conversion of a new believer. He couldn't take a chance that they might die before they found someone willing to baptize them.

I will first reiterate my previous discussion about Jesus actually being the Holy Ghost. In John 14:16, Jesus promised to send another Comforter. (Holy Ghost) In verse 17, Jesus tells them that they knew the Comforter already, because He dwelt with them and would be in them. So who dwelt with the disciples at that time? Jesus did. So when we have the Spirit in us, we have Christ in us (Ephesians 3:16-17).

A physical interpretation of