TO KNOW OR NOT TO KNOW!

[Guest Spirit War]

Please, please, please, can someone help me with this harsh question that is constantly thrown at me when I try to witness for the Lord.

God knows all things. Everything about everyone all the ins and outs of this world. God knows the past, present and future... that we all acknowledge, yes?

The best would be to put it straight forward:

1 - Did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to rebel? So in a sense did God not create sin?

2 - Eventhough God gave Adam and Eve a fair warning about what would happen if they disobeyed Him... why did He create them in knowing what would happen?????????

3 - Scriptures are very clear in saying that Satan is the ruler of this world we live in (earth), that this is his prison. Why were humans placed on Earth then to be tempted?

4 - When a new baby is created... God knows that person's future. Why does He create someone knowing that they will NOT choose Him oneday and go to Hell?????????????????????????????????

PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE QUESTIONS DO NOT COME FROM ME, THEY ARE WHAT I ALSO FACE WHEN IN A CONVERSATION WITH AN UNBELIEVER.

Personally I think that this is where real faith in our MOST loving Father comes in.

But if its a question like one of the above that keeps a person from accepting Christ, then I would like to know how to deal with it.

So if ANYONE or EVERYONE can help me, I would be thakful!

[st. Worm]

All of the things you are asking are being asked from man's perspective as if we have any ability to understand why God does what He does. But ultimately whatever God does, whether to allow sin to enter into the world through the devil or whether to allow someone to go to hell, He does for His own glory. Even by allowing sin to enter into the world as it has He is glorified in the redemption offered through His Son. He does not check with us or our sense of what is right or wrong first before He works His will. God does not just know the past present and future, He ordains them. Anything not to His liking He could easily change. Never run from that truth. We need not ask why God does what He does. We would not understand if He told us.

Edited January 17, 2006 by st. Worm

[Gerioke]

Please, please, please, can someone help me with this harsh question that is constantly thrown at me when I try to witness for the Lord.

God knows all things. Everything about everyone all the ins and outs of this world. God knows the past, present and future... that we all acknowledge, yes?

The best would be to put it straight forward:

1 - Did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to rebel? So in a sense did God not create sin?

2 - Eventhough God gave Adam and Eve a fair warning about what would happen if they disobeyed Him... why did He create them in knowing what would happen?????????

3 - Scriptures are very clear in saying that Satan is the ruler of this world we live in (earth), that this is his prison. Why were humans placed on Earth then to be tempted?

4 - When a new baby is created... God knows that person's future. Why does He create someone knowing that they will NOT choose Him oneday and go to Hell?????????????????????????????????

PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE QUESTIONS DO NOT COME FROM ME, THEY ARE WHAT I ALSO FACE WHEN IN A CONVERSATION WITH AN UNBELIEVER.

Personally I think that this is where real faith in our MOST loving Father comes in.

But if its a question like one of the above that keeps a person from accepting Christ, then I would like to know how to deal with it.

So if ANYONE or EVERYONE can help me, I would be thakful!

If you have a plan... let's say to build a house. You know it's going to take a lot of work and you know that you are going to get blisters and probably back pain. Do you still build the house or do you quit and live in a box?

You get married and want to have children. You know there will be times when your children will disobey you and you will have to reprimand them. Do you still have children?

Your neighbor's kid grows up with your kids and has different values than what has been taught to your children. This causes your children to stumble because they are influenced by the neighbors kid. Do you regret having children? Should you have killed the neighbor's kid?

God created all people to play a part in the big plan. Did He not harden pharoahs heart?

My analogies might be off a bit but that's the best I can do.

[InternalFlame]

Please, please, please, can someone help me with this harsh question that is constantly thrown at me when I try to witness for the Lord.

God knows all things. Everything about everyone all the ins and outs of this world. God knows the past, present and future... that we all acknowledge, yes?

The best would be to put it straight forward:

1 - Did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to rebel? So in a sense did God not create sin?

2 - Eventhough God gave Adam and Eve a fair warning about what would happen if they disobeyed Him... why did He create them in knowing what would happen?????????

3 - Scriptures are very clear in saying that Satan is the ruler of this world we live in (earth), that this is his prison. Why were humans placed on Earth then to be tempted?

4 - When a new baby is created... God knows that person's future. Why does He create someone knowing that they will NOT choose Him oneday and go to Hell?????????????????????????????????

PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE QUESTIONS DO NOT COME FROM ME, THEY ARE WHAT I ALSO FACE WHEN IN A CONVERSATION WITH AN UNBELIEVER.

Personally I think that this is where real faith in our MOST loving Father comes in.

But if its a question like one of the above that keeps a person from accepting Christ, then I would like to know how to deal with it.

So if ANYONE or EVERYONE can help me, I would be thakful!

All of those questions really come down to one thing: Free will. God created us knowing we would sin, yet he wanted us to be created...and he didn't want us to be mindless atamotons. He wanted us to CHOOSE the right things...to choose Him. But the bad thing about free will is that people can make bad choices as well as good choices.

[godrulz]

All of the things you are asking are being asked from man's perspective as if we have any ability to understand why God does what He does. But ultimately whatever God does, whether to allow sin to enter into the world through the devil or whether to allow someone to go to hell, He does for His own glory. Even by allowing sin to enter into the world as it has He is glorified in the redemption offered through His Son. He does not check with us or our sense of what is right or wrong first before He works His will. God does not just know the past present and future, He ordains them. Anything not to His liking He could easily change. Never run from that truth. We need not ask why God does what He does. We would not understand if He told us.

This is a deterministic, Calvinistic perspective. It negates free will and makes God responsible for heinous evil. There are better solutions to this issue.

[godrulz]

All of those questions really come down to one thing: Free will. God created us knowing we would sin, yet he wanted us to be created...and he didn't want us to be mindless atamotons. He wanted us to CHOOSE the right things...to choose Him. But the bad thing about free will is that people can make bad choices as well as good choices.

This closer to the truth, except that God did not intent nor know as a certainty (vs possibility) that man would Fall. He formulated a plan of redemption before creation, but it was not implemented and actualized until after the Fall. God did not intend nor desire the Fall nor was it a foregone conclusion. God created things with the possibility of rebellion, but He also set things up with provision that it was not necessary nor likely.

[godrulz]

Please, please, please, can someone help me with this harsh question that is constantly thrown at me when I try to witness for the Lord.

God knows all things. Everything about everyone all the ins and outs of this world. God knows the past, present and future... that we all acknowledge, yes?

The best would be to put it straight forward:

1 - Did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to rebel? So in a sense did God not create sin?

2 - Eventhough God gave Adam and Eve a fair warning about what would happen if they disobeyed Him... why did He create them in knowing what would happen?????????

3 - Scriptures are very clear in saying that Satan is the ruler of this world we live in (earth), that this is his prison. Why were humans placed on Earth then to be tempted?

4 - When a new baby is created... God knows that person's future. Why does He create someone knowing that they will NOT choose Him oneday and go to Hell?????????????????????????????????

PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE QUESTIONS DO NOT COME FROM ME, THEY ARE WHAT I ALSO FACE WHEN IN A CONVERSATION WITH AN UNBELIEVER.

Personally I think that this is where real faith in our MOST loving Father comes in.

But if its a question like one of the above that keeps a person from accepting Christ, then I would like to know how to deal with it.

So if ANYONE or EVERYONE can help me, I would be thakful!

The problem, rightly discerned by the unbeliever, is that our classical, traditional position is more Augustinian than biblical. Augustine was influenced by pagan Greek philosopy. One of the biggest debates in evangelical circles is Calvinism, Arminianism, and Open Theism. Open Theism is the most coherent, biblical position, though it is considered heretical by many (I have studied the pros and cons for 25 years).

(readable intro. to topic by Boyd)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080106290X...926#reader-link

(click next page for contents)

(deals with the problem of evil=theodicy)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0830823948...926#reader-link

John Sanders shows that sovereignty is providential with an element of risk rather than a meticuluous, manipulative, exhaustive control:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0830815015...926#reader-link

Next post is a brief attempt to answer the concerns from an Open perspective.

[st. Worm]

"It negates free will and makes God responsible for heinous evil"

Free will is a myth after the Fall. Are you saying God's will is subordinate to man's will? Open theism is heretical and leaves us with a weak and pathetic God not even worthy of our worship.

Edited January 17, 2006 by st. Worm

[godrulz]

God knows all things. Everything about everyone all the ins and outs of this world. God knows the past, present and future... that we all acknowledge, yes?

The best would be to put it straight forward:

1 - Did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to rebel? So in a sense did God not create sin?

2 - Eventhough God gave Adam and Eve a fair warning about what would happen if they disobeyed Him... why did He create them in knowing what would happen?????????

3 - Scriptures are very clear in saying that Satan is the ruler of this world we live in (earth), that this is his prison. Why were humans placed on Earth then to be tempted?

4 - When a new baby is created... God knows that person's future. Why does He create someone knowing that they will NOT choose Him oneday and go to Hell?????????????????????????????????

The first issue is the nature of time and eternity. The common 'eternal now', timelessness view of God has Greek philosophical roots. Presentism vs eternalism is more coherent. God experiences an endless duration of time, which is simply duration/sequence/succession. The Hebraic view is that God is from everlasting to everlasting, not experiencing reality in one simultaneous moment (Ps. 90:2; Rev. 1:4, 8).

There are 4 major views with scads of academic papers on this issue. Wolterstorff's view, in my mind, is the most biblical. Wrong assumptions on this area will lead to errors in other areas of doctrine:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0830815511...926#reader-link

intro) God knows the past and present exhaustively. He knows the hearts and minds of men moment by moment. God knows the future as possible, not actual/certain. There are two motifs in Scripture. He knows some of the future as certain (Is. 46; 48). These are the things that He unilaterally brings to pass by His ability, not a supposed foreknowledge. St. Worm would proof text these passages. The other set of verses show that some of the future is open/unsettled due to free will contingencies (may or may not happen). Worm would take these verses figuratively or anthropomorphically (expressing God in human terms though he is not really like that). We should take both sets at face value, a strength of the Open view. An open future is the type of creation God chose rather than one that is closed/settled due to determinism (st. worm). The problem with internalflame's simple foreknowledge view (usually Arminian) is that exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical absurdity/contradiction (this gets technical, but complete foreknowledge would lead to a closed, fatalisitic future at the expense of freedom).

1) God is holy. He is not responsible for sin or evil. He did not intend it nor did He desire it. It serves no good purpose and is not necessary for His glory. He opposes evil (Jesus) and never affirms it as His mysterious will.

God knew it was possible for Lucifer to use his free moral agency to sin. In light of the God and glory He knew, it is shocking that Lucifer allowed pride and evil to enter His heart. This grieved God and was not known as a certainty that it would happen. After it did happen, God had a plan and project to redeem man. This did not apply to Satan and demons who sinned from innocence against great light and privilege.

2) You are wrongly assuming that God knew as a certainty that Adam and Eve would Fall. He knew it was possible, unless He created automatons/robots who could not enter into give-and-take reciprocal love relationships. Significant freedom was necessary to be able to have love relationship, but at the risk of misuing freedom. He had a potential plan of redemption if they fell, but this was not a foregone conclusion if they did not fall.

The historical narrative is that God created things perfect ('very good'). In Gen. 3, after the Fall, God changed His mind (which is not possible in the traditional view), was grieved, and regretted making man. He was going to wipe man out, until 'But Noah....'. We see God responding in history (His Story) as things unfold (a timeless god could not interact with us and would be impersonal without will, intellect, emotions which all require time).

3) Satan is on a leash. His ultimate destiny is the lake of fire with unregenerate man. God did not place man here to be tempted. This is a consequence of Lucifer and Adam's fall. God originally intended for man to live in paradise and walk with God forever. The Fall introduced new contingencies and consequences. God has provided a way out for temptation. We do not need to give into it and are responsible if we do. God did not destroy Satan, Hitler, you and me instantly due to justice issues. He set the parameters at creation, and does not rescind them immediately. Justice will take place in the end. In the mean time, grace and mercy can triumph over it. The cross and resurrection of Christ is God's primary response to evil.

4) It is a wrong assumption to say that God knows a baby's future. He knows the possibilities, but not the certainties/actualities until the life is lived. Hitler did not have to become Hitler. Judas did not have to betray Jesus. Prayer does change things. Islam and Calvinism have a fatalisitic worldview. The Bible shows that we start life at conception with a blank slate. God has plans and intentions for us, but these can be resisted or thwarted on an individual basis. His global project and purposes will come to pass without God having His way in every detail. Unless God elects some to salvation and non-elects others to damnation (this is Calvinism's TULIP and makes God's love and holiness arbitrary vs impartial), then a person's destiny is not fixed. If God knew Hitler would turn out the way He did, why not kill Him at birth? If the future is fixed like the past (it is not), then why pray, preach, evangelize, etc.? A wrong theology has practical implications.

This overview is more coherent than the alternatives. I used to rack my brain with confusion trying to reconcile these issues with a loving, holy God. The problem was a faulty, uncritically accepted theology. There are objections to my view, but also good answers to the isolated proof texts against it. When I understood this biblical view, the lights went on and it made my relationship with God come alive and removed a barrier for unbelievers who could not accept a God that would send people to hell for no fault of their own.

May you have wisdom as you search out these things.

[godrulz]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0830826521...926#reader-link

Helm is a deterministic view. Boyd is the Open View. Craig is Middle knowledge/Molinism. Hunt is simple foreknowledge/Arminian.

Do not assume that there is only one possible understanding of foreknowledge. Each view has strengths and weaknesses, but only one is correct (Boyd