Understanding the Torah

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings C4C,

This shows that the descendants of Abraham ( the Israeli/Jewish people ) are the chosen people of God, because of this everlasting covenant.

What we see in the OT is are types and shadows of the NT. Yod appears to understand this. The ONLY Chosen in the NT reveals that they are the ones who have entered into the Kingdom of God on this earth where there is neither Greek nor Jew, male or female. These have been made a Royal Priesthood on this earth in the physical absence of our Lord which now reigns supreme in our hearts, our minds and even our bodies, not counting our "spirits". Yes, God still has a plan for the Jews, and it is their incorporation into the Kingdom of God, of whom it is said "All Israel shall be saved", which is speaking ONLY of the Jews at the time of the end.

To All:

In regards to the OT figures, I know of perhaps 3 or 4 that I esteem most highly because of their life. Joseph was a very godly man, I can find no fault with his life. Another would be Enoch, another would be Elijah and then perhaps Elisha. Perhaps even Samuel and even the rest of the prophets. But the rest Adam, Moses, David, Solomon appear to be pretty ordinary folk, subject to sin and often succumbing to it. Glean from the best, take what you can from the rest, and reject what is not worthy of Christ.

Greetings Yod,

When Yochanan said that "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" He was talking about the Torah/Tenach because there was no New Testament scriptures for almost another 300 years.

This is not strictly true, because it is believed that the last book of the NT was written somewheres around 90 AD. These "letters" were, what we call today, cc'd to everyone and their brother. Copies were made and sent to all the churches of God. I am sure that each of the Apostles knew immediately what the other Apostles were doing and what they were writing. So the NT was available very early on, even as they were being written, and we know that they carried the weight of the Tenakh and the Torah. Remember Paul writing "follow me as I follow Christ"? He was the Apostle to the Gentiles primarily, but wrote extensively about his fellow brothers - the Jews. His weighty letters to everyone shed lots of light on the OT, and then even as today, there are groups called "Pauline followers". Of course this is wrong too, because as I said, we are to "follow Christ", EVEN as Paul did, but we could NOT understand the OT without the NT revealing it. I have not heard the cliche here yet, but I once heard:

"The Old (testament) is in the New (testament) revealed, the New is in the Old concealed."

I think we must always keep that in mind when examining both testaments.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

In regards to the OT figures, I know of perhaps 3 or 4 that I esteem most highly because of their life. Joseph was a very godly man, I can find no fault with his life. Another would be Enoch, another would be Elijah and then perhaps Elisha. Perhaps even Samuel and even the rest of the prophets. But the rest Adam, Moses, David, Solomon appear to be pretty ordinary folk, subject to sin and often succumbing to it. Glean from the best, take what you can from the rest, and reject what is not worthy of Christ.

Hey, DE!

I don't know if you meant this as it sounded, but I do believe all people are "pretty ordinary folk, subject to sin and often succumbing to it."

Joseph was pretty arrogant in the beginning. It took two betrayals and many years in prison to work humility and such into his life.

Enoch did not begin following God until after he was 65 years old (Gen. 5:21,22).

Elijah, Elisha, and Samuel may not have been perfect just because there is no record of them having fallen into a sin with severe enough consequences for the record. Remember, Elijah did have his moment of fear and depression when Jezebel threatened his life. Also, one of the complaints towards Samuel from the men of Israel was that his sons were less than godly (1 Sam. 8:5); Eli, his predesessor, was punished in part for allowing his sons to live in sin (1 Sam. 3:13) - something to ponder.

Something else to consider, it is possible that Moses' anger problem stemmed from his childhood. If you look at his life from a psychological standpoint, how do you think it effected him to have been taken from his home at age 7? And who knows what conflicting things he was told from his real family vs. his new Egyptian family? Surely at that age he could not understand what happened to him and why and most likely left him emotionally wounded such that anger covered the pain.*

David probably grew up an outcast in his family, too. Think about it - Samuel calls for all of Jesse's sons, and Jesse left David in the field! Is it possible that David was the son of a concubine maybe? Why else would Jesse not count him with the rest of his sons? Although David's heart was after the Lord's, he was still a hurting soul - which could be what left him open to the sin he fell into.*

*Observations made by my pastor who conferred with a Christian psychologist.

[traveller]

Dad E, I was wondering what you meant by that also. These guys had their sins and faults, but they acted on their faith. Are you thinking maybe that they are too venerated, causing some to look to the patriarchs instead of Christ?

Whats you mean Dad E?

[OneAccord]

These "letters" were, what we call today, cc'd to everyone and their brother. Copies were made and sent to all the churches of God.

Yes, but were they considered sacred scripture, God-breathed, at that time when they were passed around as letters? Or were they canonized later?

[Guest yod]

.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Traveler,

My response regarding our Patriarchs was a result of:

I absolutely love the OT, specifically, the patriarchs. Man o man, what faith and determination! Such obediance to God!

I realize that ALL men have fallen short of the glory of God, but the GREAT kind of "faith" we see in the OT is exhibited in only a relative few. The men I mentioned had a very consistent walk with the Lord and thus were used in very mighty ways. I do not mean to demean any of our Patriarchs in the faith, but like I said those of Great Faith are relative few in number.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Crusader4Christ]

Well put, DE! :t3:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

Here is how I see it:

Jesus came preaching and teaching a radical, unheard of interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. He did not preach as the Jewish priests, but when He spoke it was with POWER! His disciples continued in this vein and I see a very revealing story unfolded in each of the NT books. Yes there were plenty of references to the OT, but even today you have run across people quoting all sorts of scriptures and twisting them and distorting them to suit their evil purposes. I mean these letters (books) were ALL radical and the Orthodox Jew didn't know what to make of Him. They expected a King to arise and rule, not an itenerant preacher who would end up on the Cross, and this is exactly what Paul preached.

Have you considered this verse:

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Do you realize Jesus was pointing directly at Moses and saying that JB was GREATER? How much do you see Moses preached in the NT? Did you know that his name comes up 777 times in the whole Bible, and ONLY 79 times in the NT? I'm sure you know this but whenever the "law" is mentioned (the Torah) it was synonymous with Moses and here Jesus was relegating the Torah to the back seat, taking second to the forthcoming New Testament (New Covenant). The reason being is because of the Revelation of Jesus Christ in the whole NT.

I do not recall off-hand where Paul has discussed HIS authority, as he wrote admonishing the various churches, but he equates it with all the other Apostles who had physically walked with Jesus. I feel confident in saying that ALL the NT writers believed their "inspired writings" would become everlasting instructions in righteousness for ALL the church.

You also have to realize that the gentiles were not steeped in the OT. So what was coming from the Apostles was GOSPEL to them. The New Testament WAS their instructions for living, they had little or no acquaintance with Moses and the Law, but as these Jewish Apostles spread out and taught, it was with the voice of authority of the Holy Spirit, and it was NOT the "law" that they were teaching, but the gracious provisions that God had made through His Son to bring them into a relationship with Him. Through the New Testament letters they became acquainted with the Old Testament. It was NEVER vice versa, as it was with the Jewish believers.

Well, I think I've addressed everything, so I'll leave it to you now.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

I wonder if all the Gentiles were totally ignorant of the Law. I remember reading in Acts that Paul spoke to "God-fearing gentiles." They must have known something if they were already "God-fearing," right?

:upsided:

[traveller]

Greetings Traveler,

My response regarding our Patriarchs was a result of:

I absolutely love the OT, specifically, the patriarchs. Man o man, what faith and determination! Such obediance to God!

I realize that ALL men have fallen short of the glory of God, but the GREAT kind of "faith" we see in the OT is exhibited in only a relative few. The men I mentioned had a very consistent walk with the Lord and thus were used in very mighty ways. I do not mean to demean any of our Patriarchs in the faith, but like I said those of Great Faith are relative few in number.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Aw - -you based your post on my excitement.

I agree DE, but isn't part of the lesson to show that God uses the weak and less likely to work through, so that HE is exalted and HIS power is known?

I notice that you left Noah out of your great faith list. I would have to include him in mine.

Can't help it DE, I like those water parters and boat floaters.