Is This Man a Heretic?

[Catsmeow]

Tonight I went to Christianity.Com to examine a shocking post which claims that the Apostle Paul is liar and heretic. Much to my surprise, most seemed to agree with him.

THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

(stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

(boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

(speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

(trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16

We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:

Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ.

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16

(Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

"And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3

(Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5

(Paul thinks he is better than anyone else)

"I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7

(Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12

(Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

"Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27

(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29

(Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

"Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20

(What does Paul have against marriage?)

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34

(strange talk)

"In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40

(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11

(Paul loves the sin of pride)

"I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15

(Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14

(Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

"If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34

(Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

"If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."

PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:

Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?

So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:

"Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

---surrounding passages---

"In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

"You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19

Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?

I realize this is a long quote. But basically, we are seeing someone claim most of the New Testament is a lie.

Where do you stand? If someone like this confronts you and claims that not all of the Bible is God's Word and some of it is in error, as this guy does, what would you say?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Catsmeow,

There are many who do not understand the nuances and sophistication of Paul's writings. He is readily consistent with what Jesus taught and his teaching was agreed to by the other Apostles. Most definately whoever wrote the article is a HERETIC with a capitol H!

It is too bad that so many people have no "spiritual discernment" when it comes to the Word of God. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus in the Desert and he did so with an evil, ungodly intent and purpose. But Jesus quoted scripture to REFUTE him, and He did so under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Satan knows the WORD better than most every Christian, BUT he does NOT have the Spirit of God in him to reveal God's will in the matter. So I see this article as typical of Satan's rhetoric and there are those solid Christians who are much more sophisticated than I that could easily refute the garbage coming from his mouth. I would love to hear what Hank Hannagraff, the Bible Answer Man would say about it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Mrs Mac]

I saw the title of the thread and purposely didn't go into it.

One doesn't need to take the lid off a garbage can to know it stinks.

[Catsmeow]

Agreed. The point that I was making is that young Christians and those seeking the truth are exposed to these lies. This post was on two prominent Christian websites.

Heretics are alive and well and feeding on those who are vulnerable.

My concern is for the new believer and the unchurched; those who are seaching will be stopped in their tracks.

I noticed that even the most obvious heresy is believed and easily accepted.

This is one of many examples or heretical teachings permeating the Church today. Sometimes, it's much more subtle.

Mrs. Mac: I post primarily on this board. On the other Christian board I mainly "watch".

I was deeply disturbed by this post because a young atheist wrote in saying that he's now convinced him that atheism is correct, (after he had read the post about Apostle Paul).

Some people are searching for truth, visiting Christian boards - only to find this kind of "garbage" ...(a good word for it) posted on what is supposed to be a Christian site.

If we aren't aware of what garbage is being taught by false teachers, we may not be conscious of how to counteract it.

NEW QUESTION: An atheist wrote in cheering the above quote. He said he's now more convinced than ever that there's no God. The above quote which denies biblical truth has convinced him.

How do you undo the damage done when someone posts something like this?

[nebula]

Cats - where did you get this? I went to christianity.com to see this for myself, but could not find it. I am suprised such a website would lay claim to such a statement.

If this is something you can respond to, one option is to refute the lines. Some of these are just outrageous taking-out-of-context claims. Another is to challenge who this person is, where he is coming form, is he even of the faith, . . . .

But sometimes wisdom dictates to just walk away. It may be to speak the truth for those "with ears to hear" to find and leave it at that, or it may be to not jump into the frey. This is a hard thing to do, I know. But I do know that getting yourself dragged into a debate about the truth with someone who is stuck on their view will only drag you down.

But my goodness, do these folk need some serious prayer if they are Christians who believe this!

[Catsmeow]

If you like I will PM you and tell you who the author is and what forum/topic.

The board doesn't appear to be well moderated. This particular man goes from board to board...and does a cut-n-paste - spreading destructive heresies like this.

I do not believe we should walk away. Here's why:

Acts 20:28-29

28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

Fortunately, this person hasn't posted on Worthy Boards...yet. He always uses the same "handle" and goes to different Christian boards to spread his brand of "cancer".

Apparently, the boards are allowing such people to post destructive heresies...not realizing that vulnerable persons may believe what he writes.

[Catsmeow]

On Christianity.Com under the Prophesy Forum, the article written by Michael 111 is called, "Is religion of man, God, or the Devil? - hint: religion killed Jesus, betrayed God, and has failed mankind" Jul 20, 2003, 5:11 PM

You'll find these comments I quoted above embedded in the thread. He posts many controversial topics which split apart the Body of Christ and condemns corporate worship.

It goes on and on...

Mrs. Mac made a point that why should we read it if it stinks like garbage.

I understand her point of view...but I would counter by saying the reason we read it is to RESPOND to it in such a way that we can save those who are vulnerable

We are to guard the sheep and feed the lambs. If we don't someone else will...and they'll feed them all kinds of destructive heresies.

Ask anyone who's moderated a Christian message board if there's not hoards of infiltrators who go onto boards just to cause strife or just to derail some young kid searching for answers.

I felt an urgency to PM the atheist who said he was even MORE convinced that atheism was right after reading this nonsense I quoted.

I explained to him that there IS a God who loves him deeply; I also told him to go to God with his questions and do not put his trust on man.

I explained to him that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one...some come onto boards for the sake of causing strife and division.

I hope he had "ears to hear"....

[Catsmeow]

I would love to hear what Hank Hannagraff, the Bible Answer Man would say about it.

Me, too - DE! I love Hank Hannegraph...

I'm not a Heresy Hunter. I don't go looking for it but when I catch the stench of heresy, I'm a blood hound.

Once I sense someone purposely spreading destructive heresies, I do go after them because..... he or she has managed to derail some poor kid's faith or shut up the Kingdom from those who are searching.

What is our responsibility? Do we ignore them and hope they just go away OR do we confront them with the truth OR do we ignore them but warn the weak and vulnerable?

If I lived in a neighborhood with a sexual predator, I would certainly warn my children to avoid that person at all costs.

Now, I don't care if it's politically correct. As a parent, I will not allow my children to be alone with a convicted sexual offender. Period. I don't care if he's done time in prison. My children would not be allowed alone with this person...period.

Why? Children are vulnerable.

Do we have a responsibility to protect young believers or babes in Christ or to help guide those seeking Christ when the "wolves" come into the fold?

This would make a good thread. What IS our responsibility?

[The Journey]

Cats,

This junk resurfaces every few years so it is not new in Christendom. More recently I saw it as a rebuttal for those who want to force the Church to be Torah compliant. Obviously, Paul is a threat to those who want to live in homosexuality or spread many other heresies throughout the Church. Basically, my answer would have been the same as it is in defense of the entire canon of Scripture. It is reasonable to believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God even the writings of Paul. But that is different than saying I can prove that the Bible is the Word of God so that no skeptics or atheist could disagree. I would look into the motivation of the poster. Question the presuppositions he/she is making to come to the conclusion. there is where you will find your answer.

-Steve

[jesussaves]

Classic example of what can happen when people do not study out the entire passages of scripture and rightly divide the Word of God.

For instance look what the author of this said of

1Corinthians 4:14-15 (16)

Now look up 1 Corinthians 11:1

See the biiiiggggg difference!

EVERY word in the Bible was inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Never pay any mind to those who want to distort the Word. Just stay in the Word and know it for yourself, allowing the Lord to keep you from all the junk going around these days. Remember how Satan tried to deceive Jesus in the desert? He tried to twist the Word.

Put on the whole armor of God. Put on Christ.