Mrs Mac

It is important to know that there are no originals in the Greek translations. The codexes used have already been mentioned here and so I won't repeat. The KJV was translated from different texts than the new modern bibles. Also the KJV has been translated literally (word for word)where the modern bibles use what is called "Dynamic Equivalence". This means that the translator attempts to bring out the meaning of the text in an easier to read format. By doing that, his thoughts are able to enter in and the translation can become biased to that person's doctrine. NIV is dynamic equivalent in it's translation. In many NKJV bibles this process is explained very well. Great thread, usually swords have been drawn by this time. KJV is really under attack and I have become quite self conscious in using it. Will continue though.

I can't help but chuckle when I read Cain's sarcastic reply to God. It shows how familiar they were with each other at that time. Abel was Cain's true brother and it would seem that God expected that he should know of his whereabouts. Jesus takes us a step further as he gives us the command to love our neighbours as ourselves. My neighbours are not my brothers or sisters and yet love them I must. If we are meant to love our neighbours, how much more should we be concerned about the whereabouts of the souls of our brothers and sisters in Christ and in the flesh. Please don't think I am good at this just because I know it.

There is only one judge and that is Jesus. we have no way of judging a person's standing with God. I wonder though if we could use the word "discern". Acts 8:9-24 gives the account of Simon the Sorcerer. It would appear that he accepted the Lord as he was baptised. Peter discerned that through his actions his heart was not right with God and rebuked him. I would not hesitate to judge a teaching that I perceived as false. I would not be prepared to consign a person to his/her state in eternity.

God's word is truth (John 17:17). It is most definitely an absolute statement. We are not able to judge a person's heart in relation to God, that is best left to Him. Whatever the actions of anyone or ourselves we cannot deny God's word.

Years ago I was caught up in WOF, following Kenneth Copeland Ministries. It was not because of my economic situation, it was the positive teaching that got hold of me. I am a positive person by nature and it was easy to go along with it. Now that I am out of it, (it is almost cultic) I can see that my faith was in faith rather than the Faithgiver. I believe that is the danger of it. Copeland teaches that faith in itself is a force. Well, without Jesus there is no power in it. The WOF ministries have proceeded since then to blatantly ask for seed planting, in other words send a big cheque and God will reward you. I am sickened by it and feel that those who are sucked into it cannot be reading their bibles. God help them!

Jesus prayed for his disciples and in John 17:17 he prayed "sanctify them by thy truth, thy word is truth". By saying that truth is important to us, (which it is of the utmost importance to me) we are saying the word is important to us. In the "world" we have no absolutes, therefore whatever a person wants to believe is truth to that person. Truth to a Christian must be upheld in the Scriptures which are absolutely true. Our faith and our future rely on the truth of Scripture. We must believe that what God says He will do He will do or we have nothing more than a fantasy like the "world" believes in. Jesus says he is the truth so no Christian can deny the importance of it. IMO

Our freewill allows us to believe in science experiments such as you have shown or the Bible. I am a Christian with a free will and so choose the Bible. God created man and woman with a free will to choose good over evil...eg don't eat of the tree and they used their freewill to disobey. Satan tempted Jesus who had the freewill to refuse the kingdoms he offered. Freewill is about making choices. Jesus called the disciples they chose to follow Him. Don't mean to rain on the parade but the validity of neuroscience does not stack up against Scripture so that science may be the illusion or if you like the delusion.

"Warren sits in a spacious office on the 'campus' of his Saddleback Church in the prosperous Lake Forest suburb of Orange County. He is on a mission that stretches far beyond Saddleback, far beyond America even. That mission is world domination. 'We need a billion footsoldiers,' he said 'If you love Jesus, we are on the same team." "Added to that is Warren's enormous network of pastors who have received training through his classes or internet site. He has now trained 300,000 pastors across the globe. Some 125,000 of them get his weekly email that includes his latest sermon, which they then can deliver to their congregations. " http://www.rense.com/general54/onmn.htm This is a big move within the Church. I live in New Zealand and the churches have fallen for it hook line and sinker. My personal take on it is Kingdom Theology, whereby the church is involved in establishing the kindgom of God on earth and then Jesus can return. Some think the church is the Kingdom of God, but however they look at it they are out to christianize the nations. This guy seems to be the Pope of the Kingdom Movement. I'm just wondering if in establishing a Christian culture they are overlooking the instruction to take the gospel. Is Rick's style mega church being filled with born again believers or pseudo christians? Time will tell. I do not believe that this is a move of God but God is allowing the church to have its way. It wants seeker sensitive, (like Israel wanting a king) God gives us seeker sensitive. It is part of the end time apostasy and the church that will go into the Tribulation under the great delusion. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: The Scriptures preceding this one tells us that those who do not have a love of the truth will follow the Antichrist. I find that the majority of Christians and Pastors are rather ho hum about all of this. They do not seem to be concerned that church goers have lost their love of the truth. I have come to the conclusion that we can't fight it, we have to pray and learn how to live with it without being involved in the lies. We must realize that Rick Warren is not an evil man out to destroy the church. He believes that he has a mandate from God to bring churches and people up to their highest potential. Like corporate planning and training. Well, I'm not one of his footsoldiers, Mrs Mac

I was not implying racial discrimination, Idolsmasher. Thanks for your reply. Ethlyn

That was an excellent post Idolsmasher. One thing I can't figure though is why a Jewish wedding for a Gentile church. Perhaps you could enlighten me. It is that, that makes me wonder about the teaching of "The Bride". Thanks, Ethlyn

Well, Shadow, looks like 'nuther one bit the dust! Bye y'all

I came in here to read about the middle east conflict and find yet another person under attack. You got rid of Voice, now it's Idolsmashers turn??? I don't recall having to sign anything to say that I was a Christian when I applied for membership. I did agree to certain rules of conduct which I believe included that I desist from personally attacking someone. I feel that VOG came under such attacks, rather than debate of his posts. I'm getting fed up with it. What is wrong with people here that they want to control what others say? Ethlyn

I'm able to see the EU a little more clearly now. It is a very complicated cumbersome organisation. I am very interested, Keep posting, Rollin' Ethlyn

Thank you for clearing that up, Brother Eric. You're exhortation was correct, of course. Ethlyn

Do you mean that there are certain topics that we should not be discussing? I was going to reply that I too think the alien phenomena is nothing more than demon manifestation, and was puzzled by the rebuke of your post. To discuss such things does not mean that we have taken the focus of our life off Jesus our Saviour. I did not take it from the posts before yours Eric , that there was any fear involved. This is a Discussion Board! Ethlyn

I didn't think you guys could handle Mrs McLenachan. Hence Mrs Mac. Ethlyn

Teh Wiccan...... All I can say, is "goodonya!" Not many people these days want to take responsibility for the wrong things they do. It is a blame someone else society. It is quite true, nobody is perfect. I think it is great that you can recognise that and know that you are not as well. The trouble is, not being perfect eats us up inside. Some of us have had to stop the rot.

Calvin, in the link supplied, said I say that we live a sinless life in Christ Jesus who took away all of our sins. We once were depraved, now we are righteous. 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. If we are constantly in sin we would never be fit for Heaven.

Yod..... Nope! I have no problem with it and I am of that gentile, western ,Paulist society, called the church that gets up people's noses.

This thread is sending me hysterical! Ethlyn

Neb, I'm not sure if you're for real. Here goes my little understanding of your question. Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Babylon is referred to as worse than a harlot Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. We know from God's references to Israel that fornication of nations refers to idolatry. You said that you did not want to get into the debate of the identity of Babylon but it is quite important to know that it spawned the mother and child cult in the OT. I can only suggest that you do a study on it. Chapter 8 of Ezekiel reveals Israel involved in the worship of Tammuz, a Babylonian god. Babylon as a religion began at Babel and runs throughout the history of the world because it is being dealt with in Revelation. So, for your purpose, Babylon is symbolic of false religion and idolatry. I thought that is what you wanted to know. Ethlyn

If you look in again, Im4him...."Thanks" No wonder I'm feeling uncomfortable on this thread. I am a Christian not a Calvinist. endure...... Jesus did not die as God. God became man so that man could die. Man had to atone for sin not God. A perfect man had to die for imperfect men to bring imperfect men into right relationship with God. I can't comment anymore on the "penal payment" because I am too simple minded for such higher learning. Ethlyn

I understand what you are getting at, Nebula. I have heard it said that Egypt symbolises the old life and it makes sense when we spiritualise the Scriptures. Nothing wrong in that when it speaks to people's hearts. As far as Babylon goes, I have never heard it spoken of symbolically in the way that you mean. I believe though that if the Lord is speaking to you personally that Babylon is judgment then run with it. Babylon is false religion in Revelation. Possibly what makes it so is that the real Babylon was known for it's paganism. It began at the Tower of Babel which was the beginning of organised worship with people attempting to build a tower up to God. Can you imagine how Daniel must have felt when he knew he had to go and live in Babylon, with all of their false gods and food sacrificed to demons. Babylon was in reality an evil place. Spiritual Babylon is an evil place which exists today. However, it is spiritual Babylon not symbolic Babylon. It is reality manifest in false religion. Sorry, I'm of no help. Perhaps someone else will chime in. ETHlyn

Thanks Yod, I am glad. With the emphasis on the feasts at the moment, I wondered about this. I also wondered what took you so long to reply. Ethlyn

Hi Nebula I wonder if we are being faced with a choice in our walk. We can go back to Egypt and our old ways or we can go on to Babylon a place of the flesh,wherein lies the spirit of oppression and confusion, ruled by non other than Satan himself. Babylon means confusion. Spiritual Babylon is the corrupt system of religion. If we don't go back to Egypt then we must take care that we don't end up in Babylon worshiping gods of a false religious system. There are many doctrines around that would seek to entice us. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. We have one other choice and that is to walk on ( by faith) into Canaan, the land of living water, where our Lord is waiting for us. Just my thoughts, Ethlyn