Worthy News: Ford to cut 25,000-30,000 jobs, close 14 plants - AFP

[MrSealedEternal]

The only problem about "paying a person what they are worth" is that of who determines the dollar value of a job? Being a market driven economy, the market does.

This is generally more theory than practice. For instance, the market is not demanding lawyers; there is an over abundance of them. At the same time, they are still paid decently high wages for their services even though they are practically a dime a dozen. It also works in the opposite form. There is a shortage of two million teachers in the United States right now. Yet the salary for a teaching has not increased upon starting. In other words, the market is desperate for a profession yet the salary is not increasing. I say that to say that the market does not always influence how much a job makes.

There is a shortage of God fearing people in the United states right now...Lord, please have mercy on us, we do not need 1 more humanistic lawyer and/or teacher . If we shall increase two million teachers in the U. S., pray they be teaching the words and ways of the Lord.

Deu 11:16 "Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them.

Deu 11:17 "Or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and He will shut up the heavens so that there will be no rain and the ground will not yield its fruit; and you will perish quickly from the good land which the LORD is giving you.

Deu 11:18 "You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Deu 11:19 "You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.

Deu 11:20 "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates,

Ecc 12:8 "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "all is vanity!"

Ecc 12:9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.

Ecc 12:10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.

Ecc 12:11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

Ecc 12:12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

Ecc 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Lord have Mercy,

Mrs. SE

[apothanein kerdos]

Your arguments are getting worse and worse mate. At this point, you should probably just give up.

Secualar Darwinian? SInce when does Jesus fly a Hammer & Sickle? Yes, the Bible says an awful lot about caring for the poor.

Where did I advocate Communism? I advocating employers taking responcibility and taking care of their employees before the government or unions have to come into play. This is the antithesis of Communism in that it is a personal right that has the individual and community in mind. No where in my writings can you find a Communistic idea. Do you even know what Communism is?

Show me enywhere in the Bible where we are called upon to throw money at the poor

Show me in the Bible where we are entiled to anything "Just because"

Everywhere. Matthew 25:31-46 comes to mind as the most obvious passage. In here there is no quantification. The Bible simply tells us to care for the poor (this command is given to both governmental figures, the church, and individuals within the church). There is never a quantification or qualifier placed upon this. It does not say, "Take care of the poor so long as they're trying." Nor does it say, "Take care of the poor so long as they are not lazy." It merely says, "Take care of the poor."

Show me where we are called upon to put a gun to the heads of employers and force them to pay everybody at least $10.00/ hour.

I already showed you. Look back a few posts to James where I gave you the cold hard evidence that employers are not to pay just minimum wage; this is biblically unethical. I also never said everybody should be paid $10 an hour. You are not paying attention, probably just because you like to argue (though you are terrible at it). I have specifically state that teenagers and most college students generally can get by on $6 an hour. However, those that have family and are simply down on their luck need $9+ an hour depending on where in this country they live.

So now you advocate a class of Pharasees who will determine how much people should get paid and to put the gun to thier heads if they don't.

Do you even know what you're talking about at this point? I'm saying the employers need to take this upon themselves, maybe even become part of business groups. There is a Scottsman turned American (Alan...can't think of his last name) who has founded "Kingdom Companies." It is a group of Christian businesses that have signed on to hold each other accountable. Instead of forming unions or using "secular" methods of gaining fairness, employees appeal to the board of Kingdom Companies. These companies, consequently, are generally the fastest growing, highest paying, and highest grossing companies in their field. When you follow the biblical method (higher wages, excellent product, excellent customer service, becomming ethical, fair working conditions, etc) the company always succeeds. This is not Communism at all (it's far, far, far from it); it's using the Bible.

Look, either come back with logic, empirical evidence, and scripture, or stop wasting my time and valuable internet space.

[Kabowd]

[apothanein kerdos]

Like I said, you're missing the point on purpose because you love to argue. That's the only explanation for you saying what you're saying. At this point, your arguments are just pathetic. You're repeating crap I've already responded to.

Once again, you want to be apharasee who will determine what poverty is and force employers to pay what YOU consider a fair wage. Jesus taught "If you have two coats and your brother has none, give him one"

"Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter those who need shelter"

"Not rebuke his employer for not paying him enough"

Once again, I'm pointing you to James (you know, brother of Jesus) who states that for employers to hold back wages it is UNETHICAL and a condemnable offense. Until you can refute this passage from James, you have nothing intelligent or worth while to say to me.

In the OT, instructions are for farmers not to glean thier fields a second time but to leave what is left for the poor.

The poor are allowed to eat from any field they come accross but are not allowed to take any in a basket.

Once again, nowhere are we called upon to force others to throw money at the poor.

It's much, much, much more than that. Kings are considered righteous based upon how they treat the poor (look to Proverbs), the nation of Israel is judged in part because they harm the poor (look to Ezekiel), do not aid the poor in any fashion (look to Jeremiah), and many other parts.

Once again, nowhere are we called upon to force others to throw money at the poor.

I once again point to Matthew 25 as proof that you are wrong.

What you advocate is right out of Marx. God does not fly a Hammaer & Sickle

How? I'm telling employers to give a fair wage to people....I'm not saying the goverment is to share wealth or take over private industry. Have you even read Marx? I have, I've written a ten page critique of Marx. Dont' even try to tell me what I'm teaching is from Marx, none of it is. It's very Biblically based.

Like I said, either add something to this discussion or get out.

[apothanein kerdos]

Show me the Biblical verse where we are called to force employers to pay what WE consider a fair wage

I already did! Is that all you're going to hit on? Like I said, look in James 5. This is refering to a livable standard. Geeze.

Likewise, I am saying that employers are to follow this passage and give an ammount that allows a person to live off of. I am not saying we are to dictate what each person makes because each person is different. IF a person shows up with a horrible attitude and bad work ethic making $15 an hour, they simply do not deserve that pay. But if a person is trying their best and just down on their luck, then they certaintly deserve that pay.Problem is, most employers don't look at it that way, and start both at the same rate.

[refugepsa91]

This is getting personal. Please keep it civil and polite.

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[apothanein kerdos]

And YOU are going to establish what is and isn't a loivable standard?

No, the market does. If a person makes $6 an hour living in a rural community of about 20,000 people is livable. $6 an hour in a city of four million will barely get you a room in the projects. What I'm saying is to be fair. Notice how I have not given a specific ammount (I keep repeating this in every single post, and it's getting old now) but instead I am saying to be fair with the employees.

Who are you to come to where I work and accuse me of anything?

Someone who knows more about economics from a biblical mindset.

I guess I am one of those "Evil supervisors" who refuses to pay what YOU call a livable wage.

I currently have one employee who makes less than $10 / hr. He asked for a raise and the deal I made him when I brought him on still stands. He is currently making $7.50 /hr. As soon as he qualifies forklift driver, he gets another $0.50/ hr.

As soon as he qualifies to operate the wastewater treatment plant, he gets another $1.00 / hr.

Ever time he gives me a sob story about how he needs more money for his family, I hand him the fork lift study book.

Thus far, he never appears to have time to do the test. No fork lift, quals...No raise.

Has it ever occured to you that he might work another job, or, God forbid, put his family in front of his work? Maybe he doesn't have time to study it at home. Likewise, depending on where you live, $7.50 is cheap (at least in a city of two million or more). Here's an idea. Raise his salary fifty cents under the promise that he'll become certified within six months. Tell him if he doesn't, he's out of a job. It forces him into action. As an employer you should be interesting in developing him personally than getting out of him what you want. If you develop him as a person, you gain a better employee anyway. if you try and utilize him for your own purpose, you just burn him out. Force him into that position. Shoot, add another additional fifty cents if he does it. The work he'll provide from developing as a person will pay for the one dollar extra you're paying for him.

[Marnie]

When an employee goes to work, there is an understanding that that employee is exchanging their time for the bosses money. It's a pretty simple concept. I see where Bernie is coming from. I see where AK is coming from as well. The problem is, there is no way to implement what AK is advocating (on a nationwide basis) for reasons I posted a while back. One of the reasons our taxes are so high in America is kind of a forced "compassion," that is, forcing a prosperous citizen to "look after" those who are less prosperous or elderly whatever. Taxation is not compassion, it's a redistribution of wealth. No society can "equalize" everybody. Forcing your employer to pay you more is like that.

Case in point. In Canada, there is a steel mill, Algoma Steel, that was unionized. A number of years ago, during a downturn in the economy, Algoma went belly up. The employees pooled their resources and actually bought the company, agreed to work for less but keep their jobs. What they really did was buy their jobs. Today Algoma Steel is still going, the employees still have their jobs and there isn't a union in sight.

Bernie is correct in making his employee qualify for a raise.

[apothanein kerdos]

there is no way to implement what AK is advocating (on a nationwide basis)

Which is why I continue to call for employers to do this on the private level. A "grass roots" effort if you will. There is nothing that prevents this as I have used empirical examples. Anytime the method of business is followed that I'm supporing, that business has no choice but to be successful. It is just a by-product, taxes or no taxes. Likewise, if the grass root effort occurs, there becomes less and less of a reason for companies and people to be taxed into giving...

Once again, who are YOU?

This goes back to that whole reading comprehension thing you and I were talking about....

Someone who knows more about economics from a biblical mindset.

To make excuses for the poor is unbiblical.

Really? Give me scripture that says it's wrong to make excuses for the poor. I've fufilled my end of this debate by giving scripture after scripture. You have not. So here's your chance. Give me scripture to prove this point.

The day I brought him on, that was the deal. The ball is in his court.

Why hasn't he fulfilled it? What prevents it? Can he not read (very possible in modern society)? Does he have stress from outside the job? How is his family life? Is he working another job? Or is he simply lazy? Before you answer that, why don't you go to him and find out?

Until he qualifies fork lift operator, other employees have to move tha hazardous waste pallet for him to his next cleaning assignment so this is not a simple baiting gesture. So if HE has compassion, HE will not only become worth more, but relieve his fellow employes of having to move his waste pallet for him.

Notice how you shift the blame away from yourself and onto him. "I'm not the one who is lacking in compassion, he is!" I'm not buying it. Fact is, you're doing it wrong. Either there is something preventing him from accomplishing this task and you haven't taken the time to find out what it is, or he's lazy and unwilling to work in life and therefore has no business working for the company. If he is lazy, you are then left with two options; either work with him to get him past this laziness (again, YOU taking on an active role to help him become a better person) or let him go. Get rid of the individualist philosophy that comes with Capitalism, it's unbecomming of a Christian.

[Kabowd]

Good leaders develop good leaders. Those who don't know how to lead (whether in business or elsewhere) only keep others "beneath" them and therefore prevent them from ever rising to a higher level.